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Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

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Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#231

Post by squigz »

ryandrake wrote: post #169
squigz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahhh, tabs... it only took 40 years!

I sometimes think I’m the only person in the universe who doesn’t prefer tabs. I already have a way to manage multiple windows worth of content: my OS’s Window Manager. Why would I want every application I run to also implement its own custom window management—visually and functionally inconsistent from every other application’s custom window management? I feel applications that do tabs are just like applications tha…

They manage 2 entirely different contexts. When I want to check my mail, I know I just have to go to Firefox and hit the first tab; not cycle through 200 unorganized windows

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#232

Post by cjblomqvist »

hilbert42 wrote: post #112
cjblomqvist wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the same situation as back then. 1. They don't have the same browser market share at all. 2. They don't have the same operating system market share they used to either (specifically, they lost the mobile space - which is how majority of people in the world access the internet). 3. It's easier to use another browser now on Windows then back when it was at its worst in 00s (where IE was more or less part of ex…

"It's not the same situation as back then. 1. They don't have the same browser market share at all." That's essentially irrelevant because (a) Microsoft complied with the Court's ruling and allowed other browsers to be installed without hindrance, that's not the situation now; (b) you're painting a picture as if Microsoft was disadvantaged by the situation now and thus it's unfair to impose such restrictions again th…

I'm not arguing whether Microsoft's behavior is good or bad (that's a long, subjective, discussion) - I'm arguing that from a legal point of view it's not clear cut that it's the same situation, as was suggested.

Company size is for example not considered (generally anyway) as relevant for whether a company has a monopoly/market dominance or not. This seems to be forgotten, and it seems few cares about why the definition is what it is (or even what it really is).

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#233

Post by csdvrx »

alt227 wrote: post #224
csdvrx wrote: post #187

Mozilla receives money from Google, so I'd take whatever they say with a pinch of salt. Right now, the only serious alternative to Google Chrome is Edge, and if Firefox became too good or threatened Google in any way, Mozilla may see the money flow stop. I wish Google started innovating again, and that Firefox offered a good and competitive free software browser, but reality is what it is. So I've moved from Windows…

Out of interest, what is it about Firefox which you consider not good or competitive?

I can't reproach to Firefox that it's refusing to bite the hand that feeds, but the last time I tried it, there were other issues:

- it was prefilled with icons for facebook and twitter (bit let's say people who switch may be lost without these icons)

- it keeps trying to push pocket to me (no excuse for that)

- if had the feature for antitracking multi-account-containers, but didn't push them

- it lacked advanced anti tracking (ex: fixing the canvas size, the fonts etc)

I'd prefer Firefox with a focus on privacy and antitracking to Edge cool new features, but I think Microsoft has both a financial interest and the technical capacity to protect me from google panopticon while also delivering cool new things.

I don't like Firefox interface including its lack of innovation (edge has tab groups, split screens), and how the only redeeming point that could make me consider Firefox (privacy) is not put front and center.

I will keep checking Firefox now and then, but I don't see much chance of improvement as Google money keeps Mozilla warm, comfortable, and also totally disconnected for what its potential users would like.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#234

Post by c0balt »

jeroenhd wrote: post #214
ljm wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would genuinely hate to be an engineer working on the edge team. It feels like building a decent browser comes entirely secondary to moving the needle on marketing and growth targets. Not the only situation where it seems your Windows-running computer is basically held hostage by MBAs wanting to boost Bing’s numbers.

I wonder if devs on the Edge team gets some kind of sadistic pleasure out of ruining Edge. It used to be good for a sweet, short few months, but it's beyond saving now. There's no way the devs behind the Edge UX still believe they're improving the browser. I can imagine getting sort of a thrill out of suggesting something stupid like "let's steal ALL OF CHROME'S BROWSING HISTORY, then CLOSE CHROME, and OPEN EDGE and…

They should pull the BOFH of the edge team. For the greater good of all windows users.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#235

Post by Vinnl »

doix wrote: post #53
gbxyz wrote: post #20

I kind of get the vibe that Mozilla is laying the groundworks for Microsoft vs Netscape Round II - or at least some kind of antitrust litigation.

I really wish they'd go after Apple and Safari. Safari is basically the modern day IE. Whenever I do anything slightly weird, I'm fairly confident it works in chrome/Firefox and almost sure that it's broken in safari. The fact that you can't test on Safari without osx is insane. Some bugs can be reproduced in other WebKit browsers (I test with epiphany) but some are safari only. Not to mention the fact that Safari is…

There is https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/26/24052067/mozilla-apple-io... and https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2024/01/19/platform-tilt/.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#236

Post by bartread »

lolinder wrote: post #150
atribecalledqst wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI -- on my MBP I use a program called Spectacle to snap windows around, and I now have no complaints relative to what you can do on Windows. Development on Spectacle ceased[1] and it looks like the community may have rallied around an open-source program called Rectangle, which is open source. At least, judging from this single Reddit thread lol: https://www.reddit.com/r/osx/comments/kazpcn/spectacle_alter... [1] A…

I use Rectangle and still have complaints about Mac window management. Rectangle itself is great, but it's discernably a patch over a bad window management paradigm, and the awkwardness underneath pretty regularly shows through. As just one example—the dock is atrocious for a browser-centric workflow. I only ever have 2 "apps" open at a time, but I have 6 Firefox windows and 2 IDE windows, and remembering where I put…

I think this must be a matter of preference. I absolutely hate Windows’ window management. I waste endless time fussing around getting windows where I want them to be.

This happens every time I unplug my laptop from external monitors, or plug it in to external monitors (even if they’re the exact same model and configuration as other monitors I’ve previously used). It’s aggravating and distracts me from what I’m trying to do.

Whereas I never have any issues on OSX, always find my windows where I expect them to be, and spend a lot less time moving and rearranging them.

The two operating systems do have different approaches to window management and to me it sounds like you simply prefer Windows, whereas I prefer OSX.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#237

Post by suslik »

epolanski wrote: post #39
YPPH wrote: post #26

Windows just keeps getting weirder. There's this regrettable dichotomy between (1) a rock solid OS core with great features like Hyper-V, PowerShell and exceptional back-compat, and (2) a crap, sluggish, inconsistent UI slapped on top, laden with ads, "Rewards" Points and tracking.

WSL2, power toys and hands down the best window management of any OS, I hate working on my MBP just due to the difficulty of managing different windows and aligning them on the same desktop.

I can really recommend yabai for window management. I have reached a nearly identical config between my work mac with yabai/xkhd and my i3wm-based linux workstation.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#238

Post by lolinder »

frizlab wrote: post #164
lolinder wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Rectangle and still have complaints about Mac window management. Rectangle itself is great, but it's discernably a patch over a bad window management paradigm, and the awkwardness underneath pretty regularly shows through. As just one example—the dock is atrocious for a browser-centric workflow. I only ever have 2 "apps" open at a time, but I have 6 Firefox windows and 2 IDE windows, and remembering where I put…

*bad window management for you Believe it or not, some people actually do like to have free moving windows and such. Also you seem to be ignorant of a lot of features of macOS, like cmd-tab, focus an app, cmd-up arrow to show the windows of the app, and so forth. Or swipe down from the trackpad on a Dock icon to show the windows of the app. Anyway, YMMV as always. Personally I find the window management atrocious not…

> like cmd-tab, focus an app, cmd-up arrow to show the windows of the app, and so forth

It's not that I'm ignorant of these, it's that they're clunky for a browser centric workflow. The abstraction of an "app" is just plain wrong for the way that I and many others use computers these days, because one app (the browser) is home to most of the tasks I'm working on and already has its own second-level navigation in the form of tabs. The "app" layer means on Mac there are three levels of navigation to get to what I'm trying to do, which is too many.

What makes Windows (and most Linux DEs) better for the browser-centric world is that windows themselves are first class citizens—I don't have to pass through Firefox to get to GitHub.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#239

Post by CaptainFever »

visarga wrote: post #75
netsharc wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aha... thanks for reminding me. Firefox asked me yesterday if I wanted to let it run on startup. The options were "Activate" and "Not Now" To me this reads like it's going to behave like many apps nowadays, there is rarely a "No, go away", but only "No, but annoy me again in the future". One time after an update Firefox loaded a page that said "Thank you for loving Firefox". Eww, no? God damnit, why do I tolerate suc…

> there is rarely a "No, go away", but only "No, but annoy me again in the future" Same with those damn YouTube shorts. They even have a dedicated button in the toolbar that cannot be hidden, on the mobile app.

You can disable it using ReVanced.

Re: Over the edge: The use of design tactics to undermine browser choice

#240

Post by worik »

steve1977 wrote: post #52
noduerme wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a kid it was just a crappy, sluggish, inconsistent UI built on top of DOS.

That was the “Windows 95” lineage. NT was solid from the start (which is why MS then also made it the basis for XP).

> NT was solid from the start

IIRC in about 1989 NT 3.1 was a very solid an reliable system.

The problem was it did no do IP

It was mostly downhill from there.

I got my first Linux machine in about 1992 and lost touch

But keeping windows NT patched, and keeping it running IP reliably were incompatible for a while

Did not stop its wide introduction in my world as IP servers.

It was as if software managers did not know any other systems existed.

Linux was considered "a toy" because it was free, it was much more reliable than NT (as was BSD I hear)

Sun were the other option but I saw no one spending the money

It was buggy, unreliable, insecure NT servers all the way

Still is for some. Squeezing into a Windows instance on Azure, fifteen mouse clicks, three context switches, and you have emulated rsync... Still making money selling terrible software, but now as a service....

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