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A suicide crisis among veterinarians

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Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#231

Post by alexashka »

nimih wrote: post #218
alexashka wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do Assuming you are acting in good faith - please give this a minute of thought. The link you provided giving the 5.4% number - did you fail to read on to see what happened afterwards? To 81.8% of them within one year, explained in the very same paragraph? Do you see how that 81.8% figure undermines your argument?

The 81.8% is out of the 5.4%. (In fact, it is out of a subpopulation of the 5.4%--it is the rate at which, given that the person died by suicide, but survived the first attempt, died within the subsequent year). From the study: > During the study period, 81/1,490 enrollees (5.4%) died by suicide. Of the 81, 48 (59.3%) perished on index attempt; 27 of the surviving 33 index attempt survivors (81.8%) killed themselves…

Ok I've had to double check to see where we've gone wrong.

5.4% is the number of people who died by suicide out of the studied sample. It is not the number of suicide attempts resulting in death, as implied by the original parent.

It is actually 59.3% success on first attempt, and of those who failed on first try, 81.8% succeed in subsequent attempts within a year.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#232

Post by vjk800 »

candybar wrote: post #24

We can talk about other negative aspects of being a vet, but the primary factor is that they know how: > But that reality of the job can also colour the way veterinarians view human lives – including their own – and for those already experiencing suicidal ideation, it can provide a simple justification: death is preferable to suffering. In a 2021 survey by pharmaceutical company Merck, 12.5% of the veterinarians surv…

> What often stops otherwise suicidal folks is that it's not an easy thing to do

Is the take away from this that if all people knew how to kill themselves efficiently, the suicide rates in general population would be as high as they are among vets? It's pretty grim to think that the only thing that's stopping many people from killings themselves is that they don't know how...

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#233

Post by MandieD »

Exuma wrote: post #207
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

One of my favorite cats has a bad tumor and a 3 month expected life span. I found out a few days ago. I’m shattered and the thought of having to be in the room or not is just super depressing. I’ve never lost a pet before or even someone very close to me. I’m scared for how bad it’s going to hurt Part of me (most of me) wants to be there to feel the pain in the deepest way and not bitch out. To be there for the last…

My little parrot died in my hands, and while it was sad, I was (and still am) glad that she didn’t die alone. She’d been ill, and I was about to take her back to the vet to have that final shot, so it was not shocking.

Be there for your friend. It won’t make the hurt go away, and it may even be a bit scary, but it will help your healing process.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#234

Post by footlose_3815 »

Koshi's story is horrible. A bad cat owner who literally lets cats loose into the wild (Littering basically) sued her.

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20231010-the-acute-suic...

She committed suicide after bullying and people villifying her, and the POS plaintiff Jurmark (who litters cats in the wild) got the cat back.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#235

Post by ndriscoll »

KittenInABox wrote: post #215
ndriscoll wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The effect of that is that it becomes too expensive to treat that living creature, so it gets euthanized instead. Or just let the creature suffer until it dies on its own.

I would rather euthpanize my dog than subject it to quack vets.

And you think everyone should have to make that choice? And that e.g. 4 years for an undergraduate degree isn't enough to become proficient in treating cats (at least for the stuff that's worth treating)?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#236

Post by dan-robertson »

cowmoo728 wrote: post #147
dan-robertson wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much profit do you think is being made in that $10k skewer removal?

probably a significant amount, otherwise private equity wouldn't be buying veterinary practices all around the nation. I know that the service I receive at a veterinary clinic I used to go to has become worse, a number of vets quit and were replaced with new younger ones, and the price increases have drastically outpaced inflation. all after the original partners sold to private equity.

I don’t really know what the answer should be. I somewhat arbitrarily chose a vet, found the group they are a Bart of, and looked up their accounts up to autumn 2022:

  Turnover 987 =
    Goods sold 96
  + services 776
  + ‘health club’ 113
I didn’t look into the health club thing. I think it’s a subscription and it probably includes regular checkups, vaccines, and maybe some other random things.

  Staff costs 442 (50% of turnover)
  Lease payments 37
  
  Profit 69.3 (~7% of turnover)
I’m not very good at reading financial statements and I didn’t try to dig through all the costs. There are things like buying new equipment as well as things needed for each operation. The group spent 118m on buying up other practices, but I don’t know how much leverage they had. If we take those numbers in a conservative “what if they were trying not to profit” scenario where they have no leverage, that’s 177 in “profit” out of 987 in income, or about $1800 if you assign it proportionally to a $10k skewer removal (or $700 if the acquisitions are counted as free).

I don’t know how those numbers look to you. To me, they don’t seem insane and I’m not sure the difference would matter much — I doubt the person unwilling to pay 10k would be willing to pay 8.2k. Also, I would guess that sort of surgery to be lower margin than routine things, though maybe competition drives it the other way.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#237

Post by agumonkey »

heyoni wrote: post #159
oooyay wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was lucky enough to own a house next to the vet clinic that ended up being my first dogs final veterinarian. Her sickness was very gradual; a boil grew on her neck and started aspirating blood, she became anemic, and somewhat lethargic. I supplemented her diet as the vet walked me through everything I could possibly do and was willing to afford. She gave me her number to text when weird things happened with the cav…

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

That is a very interesting view point. Existence used to be cohesive, ritualized, we were all close to and part of every aspect of it. Now it's all industrialized, and it's not surprising that it's dehumanizing to people in charge.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#238

Post by anon84873628 »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #72
lotsofpulp wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you not see how that would be viewed as insanely predatory? I assume you must be an expert in the cost structure of operating a veterinary practice in that location, at that time, in order to determine a predatory and non predatory price. If you are not, I am not sure how you can make any claim about the prices. >For profit companies should not be involved in human or animal medicine. What kind of quality of li…

Frankly, if a vet can, as a matter of practice, afford to do procedures probono but only if the owner surrenders their pet, it means they are making an absolutely staggering profit from those who are emotionally extorted to pay. That is predatory. I miss the days when vets got into the business to run small practices for a reasonable profit and middle class lifestyle. Few of them wanted mercedes money . It's kind of…

If you are referring to the story in the article then I believe you misunderstood. The vet didn't perform the procedure pro bono; the owners gave the pet up to someone who was able to pay for the procedure.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#239

Post by akamia »

the_doctah wrote: post #222
heyoni wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one of the worst things about society right now is we don’t share the burden amongst ourselves. The dirty work so to speak is delegated to specialists and our hands stay completely clean. I’m not saying pet owners should euthanize their animals but staying there in the room while the vet did their work probably helped, and the article mentions that owners leaving is part of the problem.

I often think that I would prefer to euthanize my dog myself. He is absolutely terrified of going to the vet (of strangers as well), and having to do it there makes it that much worse. I'm one of only a handful of people he trusts.

That was why we used an at home euthanasia service for our dog. He hated going to the vet and had to go multiple times a week toward the end. We didn't want to have him scared and stressed in his last moments.

Look into at home options if the time comes. We actually found that the cost was not much more than doing it at our vet's office. I think it was $500 at home vs $400 in office. $100 extra to give him the best end possible was the least I could do.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#240

Post by [deleted] »

siftrics wrote: post #157
pc86 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute amount of money is irrelevant, it matters what percentage of a person's disposable income it is. $10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. $200 is a ruinous amount of money if you make minimum wage and take the bus to work because your disposable income is very likely negative.

>$10k is nothing if you making half a million dollars a year and have $200k in credit with no balance, because your disposable income is probably $400-450k/yr. You must mean half a million after taxes .

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