Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

science.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 246 posts

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#231

Post by nvm0n2 »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #199
nvm0n2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same back to you! You're totally misrepresenting what this is all about. It's extremely clear what's meant here: the EU is a big thing with problematic parts, and parts that are OK. Horizon is OK and uncontroversial. The UK wanted the useful low risk collaborations without the dangerous lets-unify-Europe-into-a-megastate parts, and that is what is now happening. The Leavers said this could be done, the Remainers said…

> the Leavers are being steadily proven correct. Now this is delusional. The "prime Leaver", Nigel Farage, thinks Brexit has failed and has said so. The press is full of Leavers saying the country is broken right now.

He thinks the government hasn't used its new powers in the way he wanted, which is different to it not having those powers.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#232

Post by benj111 »

archsurface wrote: post #188
benj111 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>no, collaboration makes sense regardless The EU is one big collaborative project. I'm pro EU for this very reason, so surely the leavers argument has to be 'some, but not too much collaboration makes sense'. Of course that assumes a coherent argument from brexiteers...

All or nothing?

Would you like to expand?

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#233

Post by n4r9 »

gadders wrote: post #214
n4r9 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point as I understand it is that there was no unified vision for what leaving the EU would look like. There was instead a multitude of voices making (in many cases) grandiose and outlandish promises. For example: "So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU." -…

As other people have pointed out in this thread, though, there were equally outlandish claims made by the opposition of what would happen after a vote to leave by the likes of George Osbourne and Mark Carney.

Sure, which adds further weight to the argument that it was a particularly dishonest process.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#234

Post by simonh »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #227
simonh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remainer here, but we lost fair and square. Politicians and campaigners definitely have a responsibility to be honest, but equally the electorate have a responsibility to inform themselves and make a reasonable judgement on the arguments made to them. Correcting for mistakes is what new elections are for.

> elections are for. Making an effectively irreversible decision after single vote won with a slim majority seems like not the brightest idea. They should’ve had a referendum to approve the negotiated deal and if that failed started the entire process all over.

I completely agree, the referendum was deeply misconceived from the start. I'm just pointing out that the electorate also have a responsibility to evaluate that and factor it into their decision. I certainly did.

Blaming politicians, other than as individuals, doesn't work. The electorate put those politicians in their positions in the first place. The responsibility always lies with us. If a voter votes for an arsehole who lies and deceives them, yes the arsehole is responsible for the lies and deception, but ultimately the decision to trust them with power is on the voter. It's on us to do our homework.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#235

Post by gadders »

n4r9 wrote: post #233
gadders wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other people have pointed out in this thread, though, there were equally outlandish claims made by the opposition of what would happen after a vote to leave by the likes of George Osbourne and Mark Carney.

Sure, which adds further weight to the argument that it was a particularly dishonest process.

That's fine if you are saying both sides were equally "dishonest" but the implication seemed to be from the original post that only Leave lied.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#236

Post by mrbadger »

anonymousDan wrote: post #161
mrbadger wrote: post #128

What's overlooked by many commenting on this is that cooperation with UK science will not revert to pre-Brexit levels. EU scientists do not have freedom of movement to the UK, nor do their families and any dependents. The bureaucratic obstacles to movement are considerable and there are no signs that this is about to change. UK scientists are still applying for jobs abroad in droves. Irish universities receive a grea…

Regarding your last point, is that from your own experience or can you point to some online resource. I ask as an Irish academic working in the UK who would potentially like to return home at some point!

Personal communication from someone in the know in NUI.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#237

Post by mrbadger »

clarada wrote: post #63

A lot of the comments here ignore the fact that Horizon membership was agreed as part of the original Brexit negotiations. The EU have been reneging on this agreement based on the rather dubious pretext that the UK wouldn't allow them to take control over Northern Ireland.

Utter claptrap. The UK govt announced its intention to abrogate the withdrawal agreement. The EU did not renege upon the agreement -- which specifically includes terms about the EU's rights to punish non-compliance. And the UK's "compliance" included repeated unilateral abrogations.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#238

Post by mrbadger »

clarada wrote: post #213
pjc50 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU would not allow the UK to break its agreement with EU member Ireland that there should be no border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. Heck, even the Americans are on the Irish side of that particular dispute.

Northern Ireland is recognised as being part of the UK as per the Good Friday agreement. There is no agreement at all that there would be no border between NI and the ROI. Even when we were part of the EU, the UK (including NI) and the ROI were separate countries with separate laws, currencies, taxes and languages. There was a border when we were part of the EU and there's still a border now.

NI is recognised as a "contingent" part of the UK. (contingent because as a gerrymandered legacy colony imposed on the Irish people it is a disputed territory).

There certainly is an implied agreement that there will be never again be a hard border with customs controls. Both govts accept this and the UK parliament voted for the NI protocol because of this. Disputing this is simply absurd and pointless. Pointless because the days of unionist dictation to the rest of the population are over and they won't be coming back. Get over it.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#239

Post by n4r9 »

gadders wrote: post #235
n4r9 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, which adds further weight to the argument that it was a particularly dishonest process.

That's fine if you are saying both sides were equally "dishonest" but the implication seemed to be from the original post that only Leave lied.

I don't think the implication was that only Leave lied. The point is that there was a clear plan of action if Remain won, but nothing of the sort if Leave won. That means that no one really knew what they were voting for beyond the technicality of leaving the EU.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#240

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #231
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Leavers are being steadily proven correct. Now this is delusional. The "prime Leaver", Nigel Farage, thinks Brexit has failed and has said so. The press is full of Leavers saying the country is broken right now.

He thinks the government hasn't used its new powers in the way he wanted, which is different to it not having those powers.

But they absolutely have.

The only thing that marks out the current government's version of Brexit as fundamentally different to Farage's version of Brexit is that they have to stay on planet lucid -- e.g. with regard to the Northern Ireland agreement.

And he is not the only Brexiteer to say that Brexit has failed to deliver; they are all at it. The thing is it has failed to deliver stuff that they were all too stupid to understand it could not deliver.

And many of the worst things happening at the moment are the very predictable consequence of backing out of agreements; the "small boats crisis" for example.

Post reply on HN