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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#181

Post by swores »

gadders wrote: post #150
inamorty wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Red Bus is difficult to miss.

The Big Red Bus wasn't a signed contract. It was a statement of possibilities that the UK could spend their savings on. And it looks like the NHS budget went up by that amount anyway.

If "signed contract" is your requirement then we can agree that no politician has ever lied in their campaign promises, because they don't make them signed contracts... that seems irrelevant?

The lie was that we save that much by leaving the EU, the fact that our health service was underfunded and has had budget increases in line with inflation and population growth doesn't change that it was a lie - we could've (and would have) increased NHS spending regardless of the Brexit vote.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#182

Post by archsurface »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #153
gadders wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Turkey is negotiating its accession to the European Union (EU) as a member state, following its application to become a full member of the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the EU, on 14 April 1987.[1]" It's officially classed as a candidate. That doesn't seem consistent with "Never joining" unless the EU knowingly lied to Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

Did I say "never joining"? I said it was not imminent (it isn't) or guaranteed (and it isn't). Nobody lied to Turkey. They know there are economic, political, social etc. targets that they have to meet before they progress to EU membership. I've been a candidate for lots of things I didn't get. Haven't you? They first applied in 1987, 29 years before the Brexit vote. It has been more than seven years since that vote.…

Did the remain campaign point it out?

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#183

Post by robertlagrant »

funcDropShadow wrote: post #156
robertlagrant wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schemes like Horizon Europe make scientific research easier in similar ways. Roads allow any vehicle anyone built to work on them. Having EU-specific roads that cars built in the EU can easily drive on, while other cars require significant modification, would be a better analogy.

If you want roads as metaphor. Here it is: Roads profit those who are based along the road. A road between cities A and B profits those living and doing business in A and B more than anybody else living in a third city which is not connected to the road. That is just a matter of fact not a deliberate design decision to exclude someone. The Horizon research framework exists to make it easier to form research projects…

> It is because the thirdparty country didn't put in the work to align it's local rules to the rules of the treaty.

I don't think this contradicts my analogy. You could say non-EU cars just haven't put in the work to be compatible.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#184

Post by archsurface »

swores wrote: post #119
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

Is there an example area where the UK actually is in a better situation thanks to Brexit, or has agreed a deal with anyone that's better than the previous situation? Taking this Horizon story as an example, the fact that we've rejoined shows that EU membership isn't necessary for it, but it still has "years out of the deal" as a negative for Brexit and I don't think any improvement to count as a positive?

Pros and cons, you can't look just at this example. Also, a project as big as Brexit takes many years to play out; the transition has barely begun, the conversation is futile at this point, and will be for years.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#185

Post by tetris11 »

physicsguy wrote: post #73
tetris11 wrote: post #2

This is great news. I remember when Brexit was announced in my last lab, and at first everything seemed okay, but as the months went on I saw more professor bashing heads or colluding to get those rare precious grants as it became clear that the well was drying up.

My former PhD supervisor almost immediately started looking and returned to Germany, and most of the other staff in the department who were European have since left to go back to continental Europe. It was such an own goal.

Yep. The lab fell apart a few years later (albeit with some help from other power struggles happening within the university at the time). UK universities are/were(?) chock full of European talent all speaking the lingua academia (English). Easy to integrate and write papers at the same time. Huge cultural and academic win.

That same experience in Germany? It's there, sure, but the effort to integrate is doubled.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#186

Post by archsurface »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #146
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

> So the Leavers were right about that in the end. We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column? This is wild logic.

It would be if by choice rather than mandate.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#187

Post by PedroBatista »

pjc50 wrote: post #173
kypro wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or looked at another way, it just weakness the parts of the system where there are disagreements. The most frustrating thing about the EU is that there are both great and awful things about it. Some things almost all EU nations agree on, such as having strong trading relationships and joint research programs, but often this comes bundled with stuff there is far more disagreement on the Schengen Area and the Euro. I t…

Ironically both Schengen and the Euro are opt-in, as can be seen by not all members of the EU being members of one or the other. Post-Brexit wrangling crystallized something for me: the EU should be seen as the venue for solving problems rather than the solution. Leaving the EU does not make problems go away, they still need to be resolved; (re)joining it does not solve problems either, but it provides a series of di…

"Thank" God COVID happened and most of the real consequences of Brexit could be attached to COVID, and then "thank" Russia for invading Ukraine so we can attach the problems of printing trillions of $/€/£ on the war.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#188

Post by archsurface »

benj111 wrote: post #116
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

>no, collaboration makes sense regardless The EU is one big collaborative project. I'm pro EU for this very reason, so surely the leavers argument has to be 'some, but not too much collaboration makes sense'. Of course that assumes a coherent argument from brexiteers...

All or nothing?

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#189

Post by nvm0n2 »

bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #146
nvm0n2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or phrased another way, by listening to whoever spoke better? A key remainer argument was of the form, "we have to remain in the EU to be a part of pooled research (and other such schemes)" and the counter-argument was "no, collaboration makes sense regardless and better deals can eventually be reached". So the Leavers were right about that in the end. Horizon isn't important compared to constitutional issues, but th…

> So the Leavers were right about that in the end. We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column? This is wild logic.

Rejoining the exact same framework would mean rejoining the EU, wouldn't it? Horizon isn't the whole shebang and was never the parts that people had problems with. It's really not hard to understand this, unless you're trying not to!

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#190

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #189
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the Leavers were right about that in the end. We rejoined the exact same framework we were already a member of and this is a score counted in Leave's column? This is wild logic.

Rejoining the exact same framework would mean rejoining the EU, wouldn't it? Horizon isn't the whole shebang and was never the parts that people had problems with. It's really not hard to understand this, unless you're trying not to!

This is a weird, lazy, bad-faith mischaracterisation of what I said.

Horizon is a framework. We rejoined it. End of argument.

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