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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#231

Post by TheCleric »

laratied wrote: post #162
thr-nrg wrote: post #37

I fully intend to kill myself eventually. The idea that I should prolong my life past the point where I get dementia, a degenerative disease, or just plain old age where I can't stand up or whipe my ass is repugnant enough that I can't understand people who want me to suffer until doctors finally stop being able to put me back together. Much better to die cheaply with a wonderful cocktail of opiates while watching a…

Same here. I fear the random nature of a heart attack even more. My ideal is almost to take enough water into the woods to starve in the woods. To really stare my death in the face and experience it slowly. Clinging to life in a nursing home is a fate worse than death to me. I am sure this all depends on having kids or not. Being child free gives many more options.

This is something I have thought about, but recently have paid attention to stories that seem to be along these lines, such as Gordon Kaye in Great Smokies National Park.

While this may seem like a simple way, it seems like it wastes hundreds of people's time that could be spent helping people who are actually wanting help.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#232

Post by Retric »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #211
Retric wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the definition of judgmental to say someone is wrong like that. You’re judging their actions as wrong.

Note that I said overly judgmental. Judgment itself is part of the human condition. You can judge an action or choice without demeaning or dehumanizing the person. You can even do it from a place of empathy understanding and compassion. The idea of that people shouldn't or can't judge any choice or action another makes is absurd at face value.

Except you very rarely have enough information to make informed judgements. It’s inherently dehumanizing to assume the limited information you get from say a news article is all that’s relevant because it treats them as cardboard cutouts of actual people.

It’s easy to see a pregnant teen and think poor thoughts about them without considering if perhaps they are older than you assume and married or they got rapped etc. Read about a convict and perhaps they did something horrible or perhaps they’re wrongly convicted, you simply didn’t know.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#233

Post by JohnBooty »

cedws wrote: post #103
martindbp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much easier said than done. I doubt you'll feel the same way when that old age approaches, just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40.

>just like teenagers who think life is practically over by 40 Sorry but... it kind of is, no? You've probably got a family weighing you down so you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom to start new exciting ventures. You can't quit your sucky job because it supports your family. You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices. You're probabl…

I'm in my 40s and felt the same way as you (more or less) at 22.

Many people do wind up as you describe. On the other hand you write as if it is inevitable rather than a specific choice.

    You've probably got a family weighing you down so 
    you can't travel anymore. You don't have the freedom 
    to start new exciting ventures.
Yes, you probably do have to choose between "family" and the other stuff unless you have some unusually favorable circumstances. Either lots of money, or extended family members (grandparents) with whom you can leave the kids while you travel, etc.

Depends on your definition of "travel" though. Flying to another country on a whim? Probably not. Packing the kids and tents up and going camping? Heck yes.

    You go to parties that end at 9pm and your social gatherings 
    consist of talking about traffic and grocery prices.
Oh hell no. I'm over 40 and still making great friends. Friends with whom I share interests, not just banal conversations. It's different than when you're young, it takes a little more work. You're not just dumped into a school with hundreds of people your age. But it's better. You can choose your social circles and meet other enthusiasts relevant to your interests.

    You're probably married to someone you love and respect, 
    but the flame isn't the same as what you once had.
It's certainly true: those giddy early months of a relationship change into something else eventually. Can be better or worse depending on your perspective.

Again, you can just not get married! Or do some kind of poly/open/whatever relationship if that's your thing. Or be asexual. Or be so undesirable that nobody wants to nestle down with you and saddle you with a family. Or just find some sort of ethical way of getting what you need from sex workers. (That last one may be tricky)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#234

Post by acover »

thr-nrg wrote: post #37

I fully intend to kill myself eventually. The idea that I should prolong my life past the point where I get dementia, a degenerative disease, or just plain old age where I can't stand up or whipe my ass is repugnant enough that I can't understand people who want me to suffer until doctors finally stop being able to put me back together. Much better to die cheaply with a wonderful cocktail of opiates while watching a…

Lots of degenerative diseases aren't so bad - for example osteoporosis. I get what you mean though, bad degenerative diseases.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#235

Post by anonymouskimmer »

coldtea wrote: post #188
louwrentius wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Canada example is not about suicide at all but about the impact of a society without a safety net. The issue isn’t the suicides, it’s almost a logical response to a situation that is objectively terrible without a possibility or getting better.

It's connected though, when assisted suicide there, is not just legal, but increasingly accepted, nornalized, or even encouraged as an invididual solution to not having a safety net. So, the cause of the problem isn't the suicides - but they are offered (and used) as a way-out of it. This eases the burden on the state to do something to solve the root problem (why improve their condition, when they just off themselve…

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivit...

> Woman with chemical sensitivities chose medically-assisted death after failed bid to get better housing

https://www.liveaction.org/news/euthanasia-unjust-social-con...

> a recent poll found that 27 percent of Canadians polled strongly or moderately agree that euthanasia is acceptable for suffering caused by “poverty” and 28 percent strongly or moderately agree that killing by doctors is acceptable for suffering caused by homelessness.

> And in the context of medical issues, the authors claim that this includes killing patients who would not want to die if they could access proper treatment (emphasis theirs)

> So, socialized medicine fails, and a splendid answer to the problem for patients in need is euthanasia. Do you see now why I call euthanasia/assisted suicide “abandonment?”

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#236

Post by mattkrause »

2devnull wrote: post #184
atchoo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He might only teach as a counter-example. He may be advocating for highly dysfunctional irrational thinking patterns that leads to suicide. They might be convincing, seductive and dangerous and should only be responsibly presented with clear context and challenge.

I like the idea that DFW is such a good writer that his words cause death. That would be a great plot device.

Throw in a tennis academy and some strange quasi-apocalyptic geopolitics and you might have yourself a book! :)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#237

Post by anonymouskimmer »

niea_11 wrote: post #25
gwd wrote: post #4

"...what is it we need but more life? What does the infant need but more life? What does the bosom of his mother give him but life in abundance? What does the old man need, whose limbs are weak and whose pulse is low, but more of the life which seems ebbing from him? Weary with feebleness, he calls upon death, but in reality it is life he wants. It is but the encroaching death in him that desires death. He longs for…

Another relevant quote by David foster wallace : The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will e…

> i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant.

I don't buy it. From personal experience I know that certain mental states can reduce or exacerbate fears.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#238

Post by martindbp »

stocknoob wrote: post #223
martindbp wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, traveling and partying gets old. Most of us have an evolutionary desire to have kids. You may not, but it can take time to manifest. Look out for feelings of hollowness, boredom or depression. Parenting may be hard, but I've never felt hollow or bored or that life has no meaning.

You probably didn’t mean it this way, but that reasoning emphasizes bringing beings into this world to avoid your own bad emotions, and not so they can experience their own good ones.

Giving kids a happy childhood and setting them up for happiness and contentment is of course implied. Either way, I think the vast majority of people who are alive want to remain alive, so I never understood the sentiment that it's selfish to bring someone into the world. It's only selfish if you benefit while someone else suffers. Bringing kids into the world is a win-win, at least in the developed world where birthrates are plummeting way below replacement rate. In this case it's a win-win-win (third being society).

What might be considered selfish is to not have kids when we are way below replacement rate, while expecting to be taken care of by other's kids in old age. Unless we reach AGI and humanoid robots soon, the food, housing, services and healthcare has to be provided by younger people.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#239

Post by anonymouskimmer »

denton-scratch wrote: post #163

The article is heavily focused on how to prevent suicide. They note that suicide is sometimes rational (they call it "existential", euphemistically). I'm all for removing the causes of people wanting to die. But if people have any rights at all, the right to decide when and how you die seems to be the most fundamental. It seems to be almost impossible nowadays to obtain the kinds of drugs (basically, barbiturates) th…

> Mostly the opposition to enabling killing yourself is ideological, and seems to be particularly prevalent among people with strong religious opinions.

Kevin Yuill is an atheist. If you want the non-religious argument against state-sanctioned suicide read him (though, of course, as an individual he doesn't cover every anti-euthanasia atheist's point of view).

I'm sorry for your particular situation.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#240

Post by dale_glass »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #40
goodpoint wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To kill yourself by getting skin cancer?

Honestly, I just find it hard to care about skin cancer all that much. I gotta die from something at some point, and I feel like covering my skin in nasty oils and stuff on every nice summer day is too much a price for me just to die from "not skin cancer". Because now every nice day is a little bit less nice. Ofc I'm a bit lucky because I can at least tan somewhat, so if I just taper up my sun exposure in the spring…

There are better and worse ways of dying though. Getting cancer while you're still young enough to have fun and enjoy life and spending a lot of time in pain and going from one doctor to another isn't really how I want to go.
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