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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#231

Post by Kye »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #96
machina_ex_deus wrote: post #85

[flagged]

The thing that really shocked me was watching an episode of South Park. The boys all got into airsoft, and really enjoyed it (in contrast to a bunch of older jaded teens that used drugs and were largely miserable.) The dads weren't sure about letting their boys play, but when they saw the teens picking on their kids, went and bought a bunch of tactical gear and airsoft guns and went on the field with their kids. Oh,…

South Park isn't really counterculture. It takes low-effort shots at everyone regardless of the merits of the target's position. Rarely, they have a moment where the unique naivety of the targeting falls just right and you get a decent episode.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#232

Post by z3c0 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #222
z3c0 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh God, not one of these "we used self-reported statistics from metropolitan police departments to determine valid discharges of firearms to paint with broad strokes all over the country" studies. As if they say anything about the rural parts of this country, like my hometown, half an hour from where Ahmaud Arbery was gunned down. https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/22/us/jarrett-hobbs-camden-count... https://www.dailymail.c…

That data generally agrees with victim surveys about the race of offenders of violent crimes. It stands to reason that a group with a larger share of violent criminals is also going to have more police killings. Is there any data that contradict these? Is there any plausible theory about why victims might conspire with police to make it appear as though black Americans collectively overcommit violent crimes?

At first, I typed out a more long-winded reply about why one can't conflate the self-report statistics of victims with the motivations of police in violent skirmishes, but I've been reflecting a lot lately on choosing my battles.

The "but black people are more likely to be violent criminals" rebuttal is a despicable one, and if you can't see the absence of causal links that you're deliberately hopping over in an attempt to shoehorn that in, then I doubt I'm going to make you see it in a HN comment. That said, I sure hope you don't ever correct someone on "causation vs correlation", as you'd be a tremendous hypocrite.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#233

Post by harimau777 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #216
cfltlayoffs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a superficial understanding of "support". They make their logo rainbow for a month. None of the groups you mentioned support police abolition, prison abolition, for instance. Police budgets still go up. Homeless encampments still get bulldozed. Black people are still killed by police. Capitalists have co-opted the least disruptive demands of advocates in an attempt to draw attention away from the actual…

Police budgets are up, but policing is down, killings by police are way down, and consequentially violent crime is way, way up. Protesters didn’t get everything, but they got a lot of what they asked for (reduction in policing, basically) and they seem content (no more major protests or riots since the precipitous drop in policing following the Floyd protests). It seems hard to argue that there haven’t been disruptiv…

I don't think it's that activists are content. Rather I think it's that a combination of people returning to work, the end of Covid financial support, and high inflation means that people can't protest anymore. There's probably also a lot of fatigue after protests were going on for months.

I'd also contest whether activists really got much of what they were asking for. They generally weren't asking for simply no-police. Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#234

Post by throwaway894345 »

adamcharnock wrote: post #46
nxmnxm99 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I suppose it is counter-culture in a universe where people dismiss it as being hedonism. And while hedonism may be a side-effect in some situations, even that comes from eschewing the standards of wider society. I'd argue that is the definition of counter-culture.

You would be hard pressed to find many people who would publicly call it “hedonism”, particularly among the cultural elites. Just because there is some niche that disapproves of a culture doesn’t necessarily make that culture a “counter culture”.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#235

Post by Jeema101 »

drewcon wrote: post #114

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

This comment is totally off topic. The theme of the article is pop culture and whether it's possible for alternative types of pop culture to gain traction anymore given the fact that most of the outlets are governed by algorithms that prioritize engagement - you're referring to toxic culture war politics. Did you even read the article?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#236

Post by throwaway894345 »

misnome wrote: post #45
AmericanChopper wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank decorates rainbow ATMs during pride month. A block away from my house my local council has created a rainbow street crossing. I don’t think it’s possible to get more mainstream than that.

Taping a nail to your jacket doesn’t make you Punk.

No, but if corporations and cultural elites are all taping nails on their jackets, then punk is no longer counter-cultural.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#237

Post by Pigalowda »

Mezzie wrote: post #202
Pigalowda wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are right. The US kinda feels like Asimov’s foundation, especially in the west coast. Fewer people acting like adults and more people chasing dopamine and letting entropy do its damage. Maybe I just need to stop taking public transportation and walking the city. Perhaps suburbs feel further from the precipice.

I've been wondering lately if it's down to the lack of agency on the part of average people. Like I see that America is in decline and has a decent chance of falling apart in my lifetime (I'm 34), but what exactly am I going to do about it? Nobody in charge cares, they're too busy fiddling. If you can't stop the decline and have to live it, why not try to enjoy what you have while you have it?

I’m 37 so we’re pretty much the same cohort. And I’ve also reached that conclusion - I get out of the city and ski and hike, spend time with SO, etc. I won’t be dragged into the bullshit doomerism and constant shifting existential crises that online and west coasters seem to be addicted to.

However, my daily commutes through seattle runs me right into the Pioneer square station and I swear it’s like something from “the Wire”. It feels like hamsterdam, a hell on earth. So while I generally resolve to do whats best for myself I still run into the effects of the society I live in everyday and it’s depressing/demoralizing. This city is diseased with an aggressive malignancy.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#238

Post by jononomo »

adamcharnock wrote: post #20

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

A counter-culture has to be at least a somewhat monolithic and unifying thing. If there are two dozen counter-cultures, then there aren't any.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#239

Post by auctoritas »

bluetomcat wrote: post #209
auctoritas wrote: post #188

This article misunderstands what a "culture" is. Specific activities do not constitute a culture. Niche interests within a single domain do not constitute a culture. "Interest in Marvel movies" or some other figment of pop culture is not itself a culture, not by a long shot. This is why we can speak of a "pop culture" in the first place, because we sense that many things - nominally unrelated products situated within…

"Counterculture" is a very US- and Anglo-centric term to begin with. It implies that there is a "mainstream" culture to be opposed. In this view there are nerds with eyeglasses and specific interests and normies with a better chance of reproduction. The mainstream culture is the post-WW2 consumer culture that grew around commercial TV shows, blockbuster movies and advertising and household consumption through items l…

Culture and Counterculture have always existed. What you're describing is just the most recent instance of the Culture/Counterculture dichotomy. That doesn't mean the entire concept is inapplicable to other places or times.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#240

Post by throwaway894345 »

harimau777 wrote: post #233
throwaway894345 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police budgets are up, but policing is down, killings by police are way down, and consequentially violent crime is way, way up. Protesters didn’t get everything, but they got a lot of what they asked for (reduction in policing, basically) and they seem content (no more major protests or riots since the precipitous drop in policing following the Floyd protests). It seems hard to argue that there haven’t been disruptiv…

I don't think it's that activists are content. Rather I think it's that a combination of people returning to work, the end of Covid financial support, and high inflation means that people can't protest anymore. There's probably also a lot of fatigue after protests were going on for months. I'd also contest whether activists really got much of what they were asking for. They generally weren't asking for simply no-poli…

People protested for half a decade before COVID. Even if they couldn’t get out and protest, they could still engage in social media, and yet it seemed like their enthusiasm for the subject largely evaporated, even on social media. Even the cheapest of symbolic stuff like “#BLM” in Twitter handles and bios seemed to largely disappear. It very much feels like they cut policing in the name of black Americans and then lost interest when policing drove up crime rates, particularly in black communities.

> Rather they were asking for issues like poverty, mental illness, and homelessness to be addressed rather than just being policed.

I’m sure some were asking for those things, but mostly this was a media retcon when it was becoming apparent that “abolish the police” was jeopardizing Biden’s election campaign (“when protesters say ‘abolish the police’ and ‘all cops are bastards’, surely they’re really advocating for more spending on social services, right?”).

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