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America’s Open Wound

edwardsnowden.substack.com

231–240 of 349 posts

Re: America’s Open Wound

#231
post #87

Has everyone on Hacker News lost their minds? I come here to read and sometimes participate in rational discussions. These comments are some of the lowest effort, least rigorous, paranoid bullshit I’ve ever seen on this site. We’re a step above Facebook comments on NPR articles, here. Partisanship, viciousness and lazy conspiracy theories are not a good look for this site.

Snowden is absolutely a hero for what he did to expose US surveillance. It is also right for people to be suspicious of anything he says at the moment given his current situation. There’s no contradiction between the two.

As I wrote elsewhere in the comments on this story, the atrocities of the CIA are sadly well known. There’s nothing new here.

The beginning of Snowden’s post is a surprisingly poor take on Biden’s recent speech, reposting the same zoomed-in image with the red background, ignoring the additional context[0][1] and comparing the presentation to the Nazis. Although he does call it “unintentional”, he still chooses to amplify the same take as the American right-wing even though it’s been a while since the speech and people have mostly moved on. Snowden also does little to actually address the content of what Biden said regarding new and immediate threats to the US, choosing instead to focus on existing problems with the CIA which, while terrible, are not new and not unknown. He claims this is “consideration of [Biden’s] premises” but I think that’s a stretch to say the least.

In short, I think people are right to be critical of this essay and suspicious of Snowden’s motives in this specific case, without taking anything away from his previous actions.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/m7h2PtO

[1] https://www.politico.com/news/2022/09/02/trump-biden-pennsyl...

Re: America’s Open Wound

#233
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think this article does a good job of saying CIA has done some crazy stuff. But then it goes from there to -> so let's get rid of it, which to me seems like potentially a much scarier proposition. It's not clear to me exactly how real the threat of foreign countries trying to tamper with our elections is, but if this is what the CIA does, I think it's probably naive to think no other nation would try things li…

>8-year-old girls shouldn't be assassinated, but in the scope of things, that's not a reason to get rid of an entire agency. Really? That seems exactly like the kind of thing that should get an agency canned, especially because its not an aberration. In fact, I'd say virtually any other agency that did so would be canned in short order. Why doesn't the CIA have to play by the same rules as everyone else? Especially w…

You know the previous president said this was a thing he would intentionally do out loud multiple times and got cheered for it:

> "When you get these terrorists," Trump said, "you have to take out their families."

> O’Reilly asked Trump if he meant it when he said that he would "take out" the family members of terrorists. He didn’t believe that Trump would "put out hits on women and children" if he were elected. Trump replied, "I would do pretty severe stuff." The Mesa crowd erupted in applause. "Yeah, baby!" a man near me yelled. I had never previously been to a political event at which people cheered for the murder of women and children.

And then when asked about it being illegal:

> Taking part in the Fox News GOP debate last night, the billionaire was asked about General Michael Hayden saying that the military would refuse to follow illegal orders such as the intentional killing of terrorists’ families.

> Mr Trump said: “They won’t refuse, they’re not going to refuse me — believe me.”

> The entrepreneur elaborated with claims that the wives of the 9/11 terrorists knew what was going to happen and fled to Saudi Arabia just before the attacks.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#234
post #2

Did any American read this without alarm? If so, why not?

'Alarm' is not really the right word; the CIA and its lack of accountability is a problem, but it's not a new problem or a particularly recently-worsening problem. It's one of the bad things about America that needs to be fixed, but Snowden does not provide any new information here. And honestly, while I agree with the gist of what he's saying here, I tend to view his more recent stuff with a bit of a suspicious eye;…

>But now that he's under the defacto control of the Russian FSB, I will take what he says with a grain of salt. Especially something like this, which is an opinion piece with no new information attached.

Unnecessary. American and Russia do not have an extradition treaty. There are Russians here that Russia would like extradited (if you weren't aware of this you need to expand your news sources) and there are Americans in Russia that America would like extradited (Snowden obviously). But they don't trade. Why? American doesn't want Snowden badly enough to give up anyone Russia wants. So the reason he's there is America is choosing to keep him there. Russia doesn't have to do anything at all and they get free criticism about America coming from a (in)famous American, again without having to lift a finger. It's win win for Russia. And win win for America, the American government can pretend Russia is evil and harboring a fugitive without having to lift a finger.

The only people losing here are predominantly Snowden, the American people, and arguably the Russian people.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#235
There can be no long lived instution, let alone an intelligence agency, without sin.

Presenting only the bad things is not how you evaluate one, or its country. Half truths are the best lies. This IS propaganda. And this is Snowden's current position and role.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Killing is one of the CIA's sanctioned duties, so it's a bit different to compare the CIA killing a child to the EPA killing a child. I don't think this is true. Executive Order 12333 states: > No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination. They then go on to note that it was "re-interpreted" to not apply to counterterrorism. Under…

There’s some misunderstanding here regarding US law and intel agencies. Intel agencies don’t actually do the killing. The military does. CIA as an intel agency only says where and who. That is essentially the function of an intel agency. These functions are outlined in USC Title law. So it already is as you state. CIA gathers info, military does the killing. It is the same reason there’s NSA and US Cyber Command. So…

> Intel agencies don’t actually do the killing. The military does. CIA as an intel agency only says where and who.

Nope https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-gave-cia-power-to-launch-... The CIA has the authority and hardware to launch their own drone strikes. It was classified, so we don't know when it started, but Obama removed their power to do it and Trump gave it back.

The US has two separate drone strike programs. The military runs one, and the CIA runs the other.

Edit: Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ayman_al-Zawahiri it's specifically noted that the CIA conducted the drone strike after approval from Biden.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#237

I think I was already aware of most of the facts presented, but I'm not sure I know what argument is being made? That the CIA has not enough oversight? This is like a standard plot element in Hollywood movies and comic books, so that seems a little obvious. That the President of the United States shouldn't mention it if he learns someone is plotting a coup or terrorism in his country because that's hypocrisy? Legacy…

Just because something is "well known" doesn't mean we shouldn't bring it up. In fact, I'd argue we should bring it up more often when there is low progress being made. People associate importance with frequency of a topic. There's also new people being born every day, so plenty of people that are hearing about these things for the first time. Why shame them? Do you just not care?

Re: America’s Open Wound

#238
post #87

Has everyone on Hacker News lost their minds? I come here to read and sometimes participate in rational discussions. These comments are some of the lowest effort, least rigorous, paranoid bullshit I’ve ever seen on this site. We’re a step above Facebook comments on NPR articles, here. Partisanship, viciousness and lazy conspiracy theories are not a good look for this site.

Snowden is absolutely a hero for what he did to expose US surveillance. It is also right for people to be suspicious of anything he says at the moment given his current situation. There’s no contradiction between the two. As I wrote elsewhere in the comments on this story, the atrocities of the CIA are sadly well known. There’s nothing new here. The beginning of Snowden’s post is a surprisingly poor take on Biden’s r…

This is the kind of thoughtful, rational commentary I think the parent commenter was looking for. Thank you!

Re: America’s Open Wound

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Alarm' is not really the right word; the CIA and its lack of accountability is a problem, but it's not a new problem or a particularly recently-worsening problem. It's one of the bad things about America that needs to be fixed, but Snowden does not provide any new information here. And honestly, while I agree with the gist of what he's saying here, I tend to view his more recent stuff with a bit of a suspicious eye;…

> I will take what he says with a grain of salt. Especially something like this, which is an opinion piece with no new information attached. What's the grain of salt, if all of the information he presented is already well-known? > But now, he's a citizen of the Russian Federation In fact he is not. Although he has applied. > Does he take that oath seriously? It's unknown. Do you have access to any special information…

> What's the grain of salt, if all of the information he presented is already well-known?

In this case, it's bit of suspicion about his motivations. And if he presents claims of new factual information in other communications, I would require more rigorous verification of their truth than I would if he was, say, in France taking advantage of some extradition loophole.

> In fact he is not. Although he has applied.

That appears to be correct. So I don't know if he has yet taken an oath of allegiance to the Russian Federation, though he has certainly announced his intention to.

> It's unknown. Do you have access to any special information on this subject?

Of course not; it's a rhetorical question that follows from his previous statements about his belief that the oath he took to the United States required him to do what he did, despite the personal cost.

> Can you truly not think of any reasons Russia might tolerate his presence even if he were not to seriously and honestly swear to do whatever they say?

Of course I can; there is a continuum of possibilities between "He is free to say whatever he wants but he only says bad things about Russia's adversaries for obvious practical reasons, in return for which his presence is tolerated" to "He is and has been for many years a paid FSB agent or asset and a true believer in the geopolitical agenda of the Russian Federation and everything he writes is crafted specifically by him and a FSB propaganda team to serve their goals of the moment". My personal opinion is that he lies somewhere much closer to the first than the second, but in the end we don't know. Thus, grain of salt.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#240
post #3

it is not clear what could be done should an intelligence agency turn rogue, and become operationally independent from the government. It's basically a non-democratic power centre which - because it is not subject to elections - will always outlast any politician, and because of the nature of the work, has vast powers of direct and indirect influence. Good job that this is not the case in the US

It gets extra fun when you realize that all of this also applies to the police.

Even more fun when you realize that the "War on Drugs" has nothing to do with drugs, and is intended to militarize the police.
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