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America’s Open Wound

edwardsnowden.substack.com

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Re: America’s Open Wound

#91

Post by AdamH12113 »

rendall wrote: post #2

Did any American read this without alarm? If so, why not?

The CIA being a nasty organization that does nasty things has been well-known for decades. What makes (most) Americans tolerate this is the same reason anyone tolerates such nasty things -- they're being done to other people. Drone strikes in particular have been discussed since the Obama administration. It's not okay, but as Snowden himself points out, it is normal.

What did alarm me was Snowden mischaracterizing Biden's Philadelphia speech[1][2] as something out of a Nazi propaganda film by using out-of-context quotes and selective photography. There are plenty of liberals/leftists for whom drone strikes are their biggest issue (often so they can claim that both major parties are basically the same), but this is a step even beyond that. Given that the collapse of American democracy would be worse even for his pet issues, I find it hard to believe that Snowden is being sincere.

[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA3Outfs7K8

Re: America’s Open Wound

#92

Post by britzkopf »

sbf501 wrote: post #51
dvt wrote: post #22

A bit hypocritical of Snowden to criticize the USA while holed up in Russia. But maybe I'm a bit partial considering the USSR destroyed every semblance of culture and national identity in my home country, causing generations of corruption and trauma, and ultimately emboldening my family to move to the States--abandoning lifelong friends and family--where a much better life was possible. But please, keep lecturing us…

This is a clear case of the "ad hominem" fallacy. You are saying his argument is wrong because of who he is. Just because he is doing something odd (holed up in Russia) doesn't mean he is wrong.

I believe most judgements share some common edges with some fallacious logical forms, and yet retain some validity. Your argument, for example, has some commonality with what I would call the "fallacy" fallacy, in which one finds an insignificant echo of a fallacy in another's view and dismisses the entirety of what they have to say.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#93

Post by isx726552 »

rendall wrote: post #2

Did any American read this without alarm? If so, why not?

Anyone who knows anything about the CIA is already rightly horrified and outraged. Snowden is correct about how terrible the CIA is, however there’s no new revelations to be had here. Books like “Legacy of Ashes”[0] cover the atrocities of the CIA already.

As others have pointed out, Snowden never comes back to addressing the main content of Biden’s speech, which is about a very real and very immediate threat to the US. I hate what the CIA does and represents, but there are more pressing things to worry about at the moment.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_Ashes_(book)

Re: America’s Open Wound

#94

Post by blub »

jnovek wrote: post #87

Has everyone on Hacker News lost their minds? I come here to read and sometimes participate in rational discussions. These comments are some of the lowest effort, least rigorous, paranoid bullshit I’ve ever seen on this site. We’re a step above Facebook comments on NPR articles, here. Partisanship, viciousness and lazy conspiracy theories are not a good look for this site.

Yes, the amount of hate for Snowden and Assange is dismaying.

These men sacrificed their lives to expose the crimes of one of - if not the most -powerful organizations on Earth. And people nitpick that they’re not criticizing the other most powerful entities too. Basically they’re criticizing them for not committing suicide in the name of a people which were impotent of unwilling to do anything with the revelations provided.

I’d be surprised to hear that these people even contradict their boss, never mind reveal any compromising information on anyone.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#95

Post by silexia »

dvt wrote: post #22

A bit hypocritical of Snowden to criticize the USA while holed up in Russia. But maybe I'm a bit partial considering the USSR destroyed every semblance of culture and national identity in my home country, causing generations of corruption and trauma, and ultimately emboldening my family to move to the States--abandoning lifelong friends and family--where a much better life was possible. But please, keep lecturing us…

The article must be assumed to simply be Russian propaganda as all information put out by Russia under Putin is either lies or twists on the truth to try to achieve Putin's goals. You cannot assume Edward Snowden freely wrote this article.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#97

Post by LatteLazy »

TeeMassive wrote: post #14
hunglee2 wrote: post #3

it is not clear what could be done should an intelligence agency turn rogue, and become operationally independent from the government. It's basically a non-democratic power centre which - because it is not subject to elections - will always outlast any politician, and because of the nature of the work, has vast powers of direct and indirect influence. Good job that this is not the case in the US

Congress can simply cut their budget. The President can fire who he wants in the executive branch. Talk about it in the court of public opinion. Discourage "voting X no matter who" and focus on issues rather than sides.

Congress/executive branch: "We're cutting your budget and firing the people in charge of this mess"

The NSA etc: "No you're not, we have all your calls and emails and every shitty thing you ever did on record and will leak it if you dare so much as look at our budget. And that's just for starters, wait until the FBI raid your house and find your computer filled with CP and you try the 'the CIA did it' defence in court. Or maybe we'll correct the results of the next election?"

Congress/executive branch: "We urgently need to increase their budget, and we will not be disclosing why"

The truth is, you cannot control or oversee these programs anymore than you can the military. And it's worse, for the military to stage a coup, they have to actually march into Washington and use guns. People know it has happened. These guys do it all in secret.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#98

Post by blub »

dvt wrote: post #22

A bit hypocritical of Snowden to criticize the USA while holed up in Russia. But maybe I'm a bit partial considering the USSR destroyed every semblance of culture and national identity in my home country, causing generations of corruption and trauma, and ultimately emboldening my family to move to the States--abandoning lifelong friends and family--where a much better life was possible. But please, keep lecturing us…

Please lead by example. And when the US crucifies you, you may ask Snowden to do the same and come back to the US.

I think your sacrifice would have a good chance of motivating him. Or depending on the exact outcome, mentally scarring him.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#99

Post by everforward »

zug_zug wrote: post #66
jobs_throwaway wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>8-year-old girls shouldn't be assassinated, but in the scope of things, that's not a reason to get rid of an entire agency. Really? That seems exactly like the kind of thing that should get an agency canned, especially because its not an aberration. In fact, I'd say virtually any other agency that did so would be canned in short order. Why doesn't the CIA have to play by the same rules as everyone else? Especially w…

??? Killing is one of the CIA's sanctioned duties, so it's a bit different to compare the CIA killing a child to the EPA killing a child. But nonetheless, no, we wouldn't shut down the whole EPA, fire everybody, delete all the databases, and cancel worrying about pollution if the EPA killed a child. I know this is an emotional topic, but imo overreacting proposals actually make less progress toward a concrete improve…

> Killing is one of the CIA's sanctioned duties, so it's a bit different to compare the CIA killing a child to the EPA killing a child.

I don't think this is true. Executive Order 12333 states:

> No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States Government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.

They then go on to note that it was "re-interpreted" to not apply to counterterrorism.

Under the same logic, the EPA could be extended to allow assassination of people harmful to the environment.

The problem is that the CIA is meant to operate in secrecy, which makes sense for information gathering. Having a secretive group that's also tasked with extrajudicial killings virtually guarantees ineffective oversight.

Let the CIA go back to gathering info, and let the SEALS or rangers or whoever do the killing. Some branch of government with a level of oversight.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#100

Post by roflyear »

zmgsabst wrote: post #57
CommieBobDole wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The building was lit up in red, white and blue, and whoever took/published the photo either chose their angle or cropped it for dramatic effect. But yeah, I assume there's someone whose job is to avoid things like this who wasn't doing their job very well. https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-joe-biden-picture...

No — the US feeds of the speech all had the tight red framing, while international ones did not. That photo is the same framing as his speech broadcast on US networks. Such a market split indicates the framing was intentionally authoritarian and meant to provoke/intimidate political rivals.

No it's not, stop being a joker. Here is what US sources had: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JemWkV2Vcic&t=967s

That is massively different than the pic in the article.

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