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Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

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Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#231

Post by throwaway894345 »

coldtea wrote: post #199
yupper32 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it often brakes hard and late to the point that people think you're brake checking them, then you shouldn't be using it. They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. Stop being dangerous on the road. This isn't a game.

But it's cool technology. A death or two is worth it /s

> But it's cool technology. A death or two is worth it /s

You're clearly trolling here, but maybe we can reframe this into something worth discussing: does autopilot result in more or fewer deaths per 1M miles driven than the median human driver? That seems like a reasonable threshold/criteria for legalizing the technology.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#232

Post by robonerd »

jMyles wrote: post #207
robonerd wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data. Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections, and only 21% of pedestrian deaths occur during daylight. Of the 6205 pedestrians killed in 2019, only 424 were under the age of 20, and half of those were in the 15-20 year old bracket. The pedestrian fatality rate for adults is 10x higher than that for children (0.46 for 10-14 vs 4.6 for 55-…

> I don't think a think of the children rhetoric is justified by the data. I'm not a proponent of "think of the children", but I also think that urban areas in the United States are largely designed in ways that put them at substantial risk of traffic fatalities. And I think that your data don't paint the rosy picture you seem to be using them for. > Only 18% of pedestrian deaths occur at intersections, You can also…

> You can also say that about 1-in-5 deaths occur at what are supposed to be the safest places for pedestrians to cross roadways. I'd expect it to be far more remote if in fact intersections were designed for people instead of cars.

Considering way more people use crosswalks than walk across the middle of the street, only 1-in-5 pedestrian deaths occurring in a crosswalk seems like a very strong signal. Ignoring such an obvious consideration screams 'motivated reasoning'.

Following the traditional road safety advice keeps kids very safe: Use the crosswalk, look both ways, be home before dark and don't get drunk. Even accounting for all the failures to follow that advice, there are still only a few hundred child pedestrian deaths a year in a country with hundreds of millions of people. Calling it an "absolute bloodbath" is just sensationalism. I think you're just trying to scare people because you have an axe to grind against car culture for other reasons.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#233

Post by jjulius »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #202
jjulius wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They don't think you're brake checking them, you ARE brake checking them. This is the important part. Doesn't matter what the intent was, the fact of the matter is that the people behind you nearly rear-ended you because of your car's actions. And you, as the driver, never know when you might piss off the wrong driver - brake check the wrong person and suddenly you're in trouble with someone who might not care if yo…

It doesn't make sense to argue that the responsibility for a violent or aggressive interaction stops with the Tesla/etc driver rather than the maniac who responded aggressively. The Tesla/etc driver is responsible for his own driving, as is the person reacting to that driving. Further still, since we're being pedantic about litigating responsibility, the person trailing the Tesla/etc should be leaving plenty of room…

>It doesn't make sense to argue that the responsibility for a violent or aggressive interaction stops with the Tesla/etc driver rather than the maniac who responded aggressively.

I never said that the responsibility stops with the Tesla driver. I simply said that it's wise to not put yourself in a situation where you may accidentally piss the wrong person off - this is a general sentiment that applies everywhere in life, really. You don't know if the person you're dealing with is the nicest, most understanding person in the world, or an absolute maniac who's been dealing with some heavy stuff and is one step away from losing their absolute shit. Yes, you're not responsible for someone else's emotions, but you are responsible for how you interact with them.

>Further still, since we're being pedantic about litigating responsibility, the person trailing the Tesla/etc should be leaving plenty of room such that he can comfortably react to abrupt braking (the leading driver might have a good reason for braking quickly!).

Of course. Surely you'd agree that nuance plays a large role here, though? There are often times where you'll find yourself closer to the back of a car than you'd like, despite your best efforts to maintain plenty of room (eg, someone cuts you off or moves into your lane with less distance than you'd like).

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#234

Post by solarkraft »

silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> My suggestion to Tesla would just be to have a debug button where you can report and elevate the past 10 seconds of driving.

AFAIK they automatically collect data on disengagement.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#235

Post by solarkraft »

itsoktocry wrote: post #117
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

> My suggestion to Tesla would just be to have a debug button where you can report and elevate the past 10 seconds of driving. Wait, do you think that Tesla are actually obtaining all driver video and manually adjusting the model based on reports like this? I've seen a lot of fanatics with no technology background claim this, but I'm...skeptical to say the least.

They claim to do a lot of (spooky) automatic data collection, including camera footage.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#236

Post by throwaway894345 »

kitsune_ wrote: post #218
bink wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds dangerous enough that I'd reconsider even driving the vehicle. I have a 2019 model 3 and I've experienced phantom braking twice. Both times I was on the highway with autopilot enabled and was passing a truck that cast a shadow over my lane. After the first experience I refused to even use autopilot for months afterwards. Just recently I was driving in the right lane of a suburban road (with no assisted dr…

It boggles my mind that people would continue to use a car that randomly breaks without their input.

I mean, plenty of people drive dangerously anyway. I'd rather most people brake abruptly than drive 20mph above or below the flow of traffic, weave dangerously, pass on the shoulder, run red lights, fall asleep, drive drunk, etc. If they get in a car that's merely "too cautious", that's a pretty big net win for society.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#237

Post by qsdf38100 »

bink wrote: post #140
silax wrote: post #113

2022 Model Y with FSD. I use Autopilot 50+ miles a day, and use it 98% of the way on trips from San Diego to SF. It infrequently phantom brakes, and more often brakes hard and late and sometimes people think I'm brake-checking them. It also is annoying slow to recover back to cruise speed from a slow down. Also if you're in the right lane when the two right lanes merge- it is totally unreliable, I've been sandwiched…

This sounds dangerous enough that I'd reconsider even driving the vehicle. I have a 2019 model 3 and I've experienced phantom braking twice. Both times I was on the highway with autopilot enabled and was passing a truck that cast a shadow over my lane. After the first experience I refused to even use autopilot for months afterwards. Just recently I was driving in the right lane of a suburban road (with no assisted dr…

Do yourself a favor and sell that car before it’s worthless. You won’t be doing a favor to the person buying it though.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#238

Post by klyrs »

tyrfing wrote: post #169
klyrs wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, only if the lane markings aren't visible That's... most of Canada, thanks to the snowplows. Good to know.

The most robust option for you then would almost certainly be a map-focused option, like VW's newest Travel Assist ("swarm data".)

Or, ya know, an older car that's got fewer bugs than features. Alas, my spouse won't go for a car that actually works reliabily.

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#239

Post by itsoktocry »

dotancohen wrote: post #37
colordrops wrote: post #3

This is probably happening a lot more than the number of reports mentioned in the article indicates. It happens to me every other day in my Model 3. It's also not binary - sometimes it slows down more quickly than other times, or stops too suddenly when a car is stopped in front of you. Seems real easy to get rear-ended. I've only got autopilot, not FSD. It's very conservative. It always considers someone to be in fr…

For what it's worth, I've tried and failed to reproduce this on my Model 3. I've driven next to trucks, motorcycles, under overpasses, under very-low overpasses, near pedestrians, and even passed camels and horses on the side of the road. No phantom braking. That said, when using the lane-assist, I do prefer to keep my foot on the accelerator pedal anyway. To increase range, I try not to get into regen at all unless…

>I feel that the cruise control is to strict in keeping a particular speed in hilly areas, and I live and work in hilly areas.

This is always an issue with underpowered ICE vehicles and cruise control, less-so with the 7 or 8 gear transmission, but still. They don't have enough power to maintain velocity, so constantly shifting, speed up, slow down...

Re: Tesla’s ‘phantom braking’ problem is getting worse

#240

Post by qsdf38100 »

mattnibs wrote: post #194
jjulius wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that said, once you learn the quirks it is extremely predictable and robust. I feel like a self-driving vehicle is one of those areas where nobody should have to "learn the quirks".

I'm pretty sure Tesla's with FSD get in less accidents when compared to the average driver. Mine tends to be frustratingly overly cautious in most cases.

Except when it suddenly turns into incoming traffic. Don’t believe stats from Tesla.
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