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It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

nautil.us

231–236 of 236 posts

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read somewhere that quantum mechanics is the most tested of all scientific theories. And it has been shown to be right, every time. Hawking espoused this idea he called “model dependent realism”. The idea is that every human understanding of reality is model-dependent, that is, it is not “reality” that we truly understand (we can’t) but rather in every case we have some model of reality that is useful in particular…

>And it has been shown to be right, every time. So has GR. Yet the two theories seem to be utterly incompatible.

They aren't "utterly incompatible", they're largely compatible. For example, lasers work here on Earth, and between the Earth and its moon. Moreover, hydrogen maser clocks and cesium et al.'s hyperfine transitions are used in clocks which are sensitive to nearby mass concentrations, and altitude above the Earth.

There are whole textbooks written on the limit in which General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics work well together, with Birrell & Davies 1984 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SEnaUnrqzrUC being the most widely used by graduate students (and as a reference book for researchers).

Indeed, such textbooks go into where GR & QM make incompatible predictions, and almost all of those are in the limit of strong gravity, which in turn is almost certainly always deep within an event horizon, or isolated in the very very very early universe.

Semi-classical gravity (SCG) works well as an "effective field theory", and simply marries a classical curved spacetime (General-Relativity style) with a relativistic quantum field theory (standard-model-of-particle-physics style). In particular, with minor caveats, on the cusp of strong gravity SCG is successful enough in the astrophysical study of stellar remnants that it is reasonably believed to be good everywhere outside black hole horizons and after the very early universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiclassical_gravity -- one of the caveats is noted there, namely given a sizeable mass (> kilograms) brought into a superposition of space, it is not clear at all what SCG predicts a cavendish apparatus or other gravimeter will point to. This is a possible incompatibility of SCG's two more-fundamental theories in the weak gravitational field, low-energy matter, and low-speeds-compared-to-c limit, and is a puzzle that hopefully will be informed by clear experimental data some day.

Since we can't get information back from inside a black hole horizon; can't see anything in the very very early universe (electromagnetism hadn't "frozen out" of the GUT yet for instance); direct detectors of very early universe gravitational radiation are implausibly hard engineering tasks; and a bowling ball sized mass will be extremely hard to keep in a coherent state for reasonably long periods of time; these are really academic problems rather than practical ones.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#232

I think the thing that honestly puzzles me is: before physicists learned physics, did their entire desire to be in the field spring from “shut up and calculate”? Or was there a time in their lives (especially when they were young) where they thought (or felt) a desire to get into physics to understand the underlying mechanisms that drive the universe? I feel like, at least for some people, the second thing must have…

There are a broad range of motivations. In my case:

- I wanted to work on nuclear fusion energy, for the future of humanity.

- I was told that if I had a PhD in physics, I could do just about anything - it's a way of keeping options open.

- I liked tinkering in the lab & learning new mind-expanding concepts in textbooks.

- I viewed it as a test of my intelligence. (Turns out, it's more about perseverance.)

I know at least one string theorist, and they seem to be motivated primarily by liking to mess around with abstruse mathematics. Some others seem to enjoy the 'nerd cred.' I think the ones whose sole motivation is 'getting to the bottom of the universe' probably burn out early, b/c there's so little of that to be had right now. (I've heard from several people who got their PhDs in particle physics who went on to do data science/programming, saying that the field is depressing and that's why they didn't pursue it further.) As for me, I found the 'shut-up-and-calculate' attitude a major turn-off to studying quantum physics. (Plasma physics uses little or no QM, so that worked out for me.)

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#233

I think the thing that honestly puzzles me is: before physicists learned physics, did their entire desire to be in the field spring from “shut up and calculate”? Or was there a time in their lives (especially when they were young) where they thought (or felt) a desire to get into physics to understand the underlying mechanisms that drive the universe? I feel like, at least for some people, the second thing must have…

The interpretations don't tell you anything that the calculations didn't tell you already (if an interpretation of quantum mechanics ever predicts something different from what quantum mechanics predicts, then it can be ruled out empirically by performing the appropriate experiment). Interpretations which don't give you a faster way to get to the results of those calculations just waste your time and get in the way of understanding. Theoretical computer science indicates that there is no significantly faster way to get the results of many of those calculations - no matter how elegant the interpretation feels, at best you have to do the same amount of work to get the same answers about what will actually happen in reality, and at worst you end up computing a million irrelevant details about things the interpretation invented which have no real-world consequence.

Someone who is genuinely interested in understanding the way the world works ends up asking questions about what goes into the calculations - what's the Lagrangian, how many degrees of freedom (i.e. quantum fields) are there, what symmetries or constraints are satisfied by the laws of physics, how can we set up the math to avoid pathological situations where the results of our computations are infinite, and so on. Philosophically motivated interpretations of quantum mechanics shed exactly zero light on these questions.

Well.. there is a caveat. If quantum mechanics was somehow incorrect - that is, if unitary evolution of a state vector in a Hilbert space didn't actually describe reality at all - then all of the above would be wrong. But in that case, every single interpretation of quantum mechanics would be wrong as well. Quantum computers would just flat out not work.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The leading candidate for dark matter is that it's a soup of particles that interact gravitationally, but not via the electromagnic or strong nuclear force. If we're very, very lucky, it might interact via the weak nuclear force, which means there exists a slim theoretically possibility that we might be able to observe it interacting via the weak nuclear force. That being said, even if it does interact via the weak n…

Wouldn't arbitrarily advanced technology be able to move it around with gravity or sense collections of it with some kind of LIGO but with gamma rays for even more precision or something? Arbitrarily advanced is pretty strong in a world where some people think dyson sphere scale stuff could be real.

You could characterize it gravity-wise, but we can already characterize it gravity-wise (sort of). We really only care about a field to the extent it can interact with other fields, and as of now gravity isn't really a quantum field, but a distinct thing. I think most people hope to eventually get relativity under the quantum umbrella, but we're nowhere near that yet. If relativity is just a description of the stage the other fields dance on, then we're just kinda screwed. We could determine the mass of the particle (assuming we could ever be confident in separate particles at all), but no other properties.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#235
post #233

I think the thing that honestly puzzles me is: before physicists learned physics, did their entire desire to be in the field spring from “shut up and calculate”? Or was there a time in their lives (especially when they were young) where they thought (or felt) a desire to get into physics to understand the underlying mechanisms that drive the universe? I feel like, at least for some people, the second thing must have…

The interpretations don't tell you anything that the calculations didn't tell you already (if an interpretation of quantum mechanics ever predicts something different from what quantum mechanics predicts, then it can be ruled out empirically by performing the appropriate experiment). Interpretations which don't give you a faster way to get to the results of those calculations just waste your time and get in the way o…

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I can see the perspective (at least currently) of “the interpretations don’t add any meaningful information” being the reason not to be interested.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#236

I think the thing that honestly puzzles me is: before physicists learned physics, did their entire desire to be in the field spring from “shut up and calculate”? Or was there a time in their lives (especially when they were young) where they thought (or felt) a desire to get into physics to understand the underlying mechanisms that drive the universe? I feel like, at least for some people, the second thing must have…

There are a broad range of motivations. In my case: - I wanted to work on nuclear fusion energy, for the future of humanity. - I was told that if I had a PhD in physics, I could do just about anything - it's a way of keeping options open. - I liked tinkering in the lab & learning new mind-expanding concepts in textbooks. - I viewed it as a test of my intelligence. (Turns out, it's more about perseverance.) I know at…

I never thought about all these other motivations. Thanks for responding with them! And it sounds like there may be at some physicists like I was describing that get burnt out or discouraged too.
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