Live data from Hacker News

It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

nautil.us

141–150 of 236 posts

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quantisation is a nearly well understood process The layman’s explanation I received for this, perhaps incorrectly, is that you fill in variables for factors that you don’t understand or can’t measure with whatever value makes the rest of the theory / equation work. Is that at all correct?

No, that sounds more like a (very distorted) description of regularization and/or renormalization. Regularization techniques take effective field theories like the Standard Model, which are known to be inaccurate at high enough energies, and isolate their low-energy behavior. For example: classical electrodynamics, interpreted naively, says that the total energy stored in an electron's electric field is infinite, sin…

> We then use empirical data to reabsorb our new degree of freedom: this is renormalization

Notably, in a less rigorous field, this process would be called "doing science to determine physical properties of things", which most people consider an acceptable pastime for physicists. As it turns out we can be pretty confident that the "experimental evidence" is bunk and there's something going on the theory can't account for, but it's funny that so many of the Monday morning quantum physicists think all this math stuff is just confusing the issue and pure, blind empiricism is the way to go.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#142
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copernicus' model had the planets orbiting the same in circles at uniform speed. This does not match reality, so Copernicus just chucked in some epicycles to correct the error. Copernicus's model had all the complexity of epicycles, but he hard coded the first epicycle into the system by having the planets orbit the Sun instead of the Earth. We wouldn't need a Copernicus to solve this problem, we would need a Coperni…

So what is dark matter? This thing that keeps galaxies bound that we cannot see but can only observe the effects… I think the hunt for it will push us into new territory. That being said, as you say there has been nothing yet found that violates GR/QFT.

The leading candidate for dark matter is that it's a soup of particles that interact gravitationally, but not via the electromagnic or strong nuclear force. If we're very, very lucky, it might interact via the weak nuclear force, which means there exists a slim theoretically possibility that we might be able to observe it interacting via the weak nuclear force. That being said, even if it does interact via the weak nuclear force, there's nothing to say it doesn't interact in a way which gives us the power to differentiate it from, say, neutrinos. And if it doesn't interact via the weak nuclear force, then we cannot every make any characterizations of it ever, not even with arbitrarily advanced technology.

If that's true we're hosed. There would be no insights, no way to theory ourselves out of it. Only nerds wailing futilely about dark matter on the internet. And sadness. And we wouldn't know it's because all our theories are correct, but we don't have the complete picture of the extra-Standard Model dark matter particles, or if it's because some variation of MOND is true, (although it's extremely unlikely to be a MOND variation) or if we're as wrong as epicycles vs curved fabric of spacetime.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#143
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t use your intuition developed from grinding out web crap to try and reason about the forefront of human knowledge. Have you tried front end web frameworks recently? String theory has nothing on them.

100% My friends a pretty decent physicist at Oxford and the hardest part of his research? Makefiles.

Tell them to use qtcreator. They don’t even need to use the qt framework, the makefiles are just generated.

I wish qmake had won the makefiles generator war the same way I wish hg won over git

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#144
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quantisation is a nearly well understood process The layman’s explanation I received for this, perhaps incorrectly, is that you fill in variables for factors that you don’t understand or can’t measure with whatever value makes the rest of the theory / equation work. Is that at all correct?

I hope that's a misunderstanding or miscommunication. It might be useful in some limited contexts, but it would point to gaps in the theory (at minimum).

In terms of the parameters of the standard model, in any other field setting parameters with theory rather than experimentation would be ridiculous. But somehow when it comes to quantum mechanics everyone rediscovers their reductionist hat and demands that every theory neatly explain all the details without anyone actually entering a laboratory.

I'm not saying I'm not a little miffed there isn't yet a nice, lower-level theory that predicts all of QM, but man is it frustrating when people flip flop to and from pure empiricism at the drop of a hat, based on a layman's understanding of a mature, developed field.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#145
In my view the problem with interpreting physics theory precedes the quantum era. Nobody really knew what classical gravity or magnetism consisted of. The idea of the planets acting on one another instantaneously without contact in a vacuum was absurd on the face of it. Einstein was disturbed by this.

The history of QM that I learned in school a long time ago, is that a few physicists endorsed adopting a purely mathematical formalism with no preferred interpretation in order to be free of preconceptions that might prevent them from making progress. They were still free to debate interpretation, but considered it to be separate from the problem of forming an experimentally testable theory.

But in terms of finding a philosophically satisfactory interpretation, we don't know what to look for. No science has ever attempted to dig deeper than the level of analogies that are easy to grasp. And it seems reasonable that the interpretation should depend on the science. Otherwise we risk embracing an interpretation that becomes a barrier to progress, or that is overturned by new experimental evidence.

I think the biggest problem with fundamental physics today, is that it's hard. As in, hard enough that it's not yielding answers at the rate that it was 100 years ago, and we don't know when it will: 10 years, 100, 1000? The big problem -- reconciling quantum mechanics and gravity -- won't be solved until we solve it. A theory that solves this problem will require one of those two things to be "wrong" in some sense, in which case its interpretation will have to be revised.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#146
post #140
post #64

Amusing to see all the pessimistic comments form programmers who have zero understanding beyond high school maths thinking somehow there is a magic solution to all the problems in physics like you can just refactor everything. Quantum field theory is definitely not stuck in the 1920s. Modern physics has a lot more going on than 19th century mathematics. We understand quite a lot about the mathematical structure under…

I'm not sure where such negative emotions towards people throwing their intuition and expecting further discussing from experts comes from. Don't think anyone is suggesting that people at the "forefront" aren't capable of coming up with such ideas themselves, more like framing the familiar in other contexts to kick-off a discussion.

Except if they are framed as authoritative statement, rather than a genuine question or even wild conjecture. Then if a non expert reads it, believes it comes from someone expert, they can then take away something completely incorrect. Yes ask questions, but be honest.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#147
post #73

As former quantum physicist, I find it little troubling to read "quantum theory has reached a dead end" in specific reference to the interpretation of quantum mechanics. Most quantum physicists could not care less about how quantum mechanics is interpreted when it makes highly accurate quantitative predictions, and there are still plenty of interesting open problems for quantum theory (e.g., related to the practical…

I'd love if decoherence was now the dominant perspective, and I at least am largely convinced barring some huge revolution, but it would surprise me very much. In terms of my acquaintances (largely the department of my university) team "I don't care, does it matter?" takes top spot followed by equal parts collapse and decoherence. Oh, and some Bohmian people but I don't know them as well, as interesting as it would be if they were right.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do get what you're trying to say, it has to be said that many CS people have been exposed to Quantum Physics. Quantum computing is an elective at every half-decent University. To think that programmers have zero understanding beyond high school math is just ignorant.

At least for me and my classmates, we got a lot more wrong before we got right. Nothing is worse in this world than an undergrad fresh out of an intro quantum class with a neutered Schrodinger's equation and whatever nonsense pseudo-philosophy they picked up to deal with it. After taking a proper mathematical methods class you start to get the beginnings of an intuition for what's going on for quantum mechanics.

I agree. EPR states and Quantum teleportation gave us a reality check during our QC course. The university I come from did however teach linear algebra, ODEs and PDEs, etc as mandatory courses.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#149
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes the assumption that there exists a simpler view of physics that will result in more productivity. IMO, some of the smartest people that have ever lived, live right now. Mainly because we have more humans alive than ever before. The amount of brain power working to find these simpler models is breath taking, yet we aren't seeing the elegant simple solutions fall out like we once did. I don't think that's a…

If the brain power is focused in the "wrong" direction or all the smart people are constantly looking under the same set of "street lamps" it doesn't matter how many there are. Unconventional thinking is hard you can't force it solely with numbers arguably quite to the contrary: a large agglomeration of scientists can systematically enforce a proportionally larger conformity pressure. It is a hard balance to strike b…

I think it's easy to underestimate the extent to which the greatest minds have also turned to every weird permutation you could think of. Personally I figure we'll probably find some deeper theory just since the Standard Model still has its issues and gravity isn't rolled in yet, but there's every reason to think that this problem is hard, not just untried. Much of the most interesting work in the last century has been ruling things out.

There are lots of nifty ideas that are explored until insurmountable holes are found in them. The two main nonstandard lines of thought that have had any real progress are decoherence, which I'd call a success, and string theory, which I'll avoid rating because I have string-theorist friends but am not a liar. There are plenty of others, and maybe one will bear fruit, but honestly when the next big break comes it'll probably be really obvious.

Re: It’s time to admit quantum theory has reached a dead end

#150
post #64

Amusing to see all the pessimistic comments form programmers who have zero understanding beyond high school maths thinking somehow there is a magic solution to all the problems in physics like you can just refactor everything. Quantum field theory is definitely not stuck in the 1920s. Modern physics has a lot more going on than 19th century mathematics. We understand quite a lot about the mathematical structure under…

No post body was provided.
Post reply on HN