Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#231

Post by anyfoo » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #67

I think we tend to underestimate what ancient technology could produce because we forget that in ancient times they often operated on longer timescales than we do. With our technology for example we could make all the parts for the Antikythera mechanism in a short time. The ancient Greeks definitely had no technology that would have allowed them to do that, so we see the existence of the Antikythera mechanism as a gr…

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project.

For some generations in the middle of such projects, I can imagine that their huge undertaking is just "something they do", essentially just their job, and from their point of view it has always been there, and will always be there to the extent of their lifetime.

Do we still have anything like this?

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#232

Post by masklinn » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

anyfoo wrote: post #231

tzs wrote: post #67

I think we tend to underestimate what ancient technology could produce because we forget that in ancient times they often operated on longer timescales than we do. With our technology for example we could make all the parts for the Antikythera mechanism in a short time. The ancient Greeks definitely had no technology that would have allowed them to do that, so we see the existence of the Antikythera mechanism as a gr…

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

> Do we still have anything like this?

There are multi-generational scientific experiments e.g. the pitch drop or (hopefully) LTEE.

Most significant archeological sites are multi-generational as well though I don’t know if we can describe them as a single work.

One thing that’ll be interesting if we actually manage more than one generation is the software projects, the early luminaries have been passing for a while, the early architects of still extant software projects are going to start retiring or (sadly) passing en masse pretty soon.

I don’t look forward to the obituary of donald knuth but I do wonder how tex and metafont will carry on.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#233

Post by anyfoo » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #232

anyfoo wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

> Do we still have anything like this? There are multi-generational scientific experiments e.g. the pitch drop or (hopefully) LTEE. Most significant archeological sites are multi-generational as well though I don’t know if we can describe them as a single work. One thing that’ll be interesting if we actually manage more than one generation is the software projects, the early luminaries have been passing for a while,…

> There are multi-generational scientific experiments e.g. the pitch drop or (hopefully) LTEE.

Are they building something, especially of scale? The pitch drop experiment in particular is extremely passive as I understand. You essentially wait for the pitch to drop, with occasional maintenance (which I imagine being minor, maybe I'm wrong). LTEE though I think qualifies, because when I watched a documentary about it, I had the impression that it's quite some work.

Even still, an entire Cathedral or traveling through all of France (and organizing people to do so) seems much larger in scope. Though maybe those are just more extreme examples themselves?

> One thing that’ll be interesting if we actually manage more than one generation is the software projects

I'm not entirely sure if there is a common UNIX descendant out there that still even has one original line of code from one of its early ancestors[1], but there's certainly building and maintenance going strong around it.

TeX and Metafont I'm less sure, but there seem to be so many developers of very elaborate packages, that I would be surprised if TeX itself was left rotten.

Generally, it seems that many software projects have changed maintenance teams many times, with no involvement of the original authors anymore... but that's also more maintaining something existing (and building upon it), not something with a clear completion goal several generations down.

[1] Though I would not be surprised if you pointed to, say, some terminal code in a BSD variant and tell me it's from the original BSD.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#234

Post by hutzlibu » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:27 PM UTC

anyfoo wrote: post #231

tzs wrote: post #67

I think we tend to underestimate what ancient technology could produce because we forget that in ancient times they often operated on longer timescales than we do. With our technology for example we could make all the parts for the Antikythera mechanism in a short time. The ancient Greeks definitely had no technology that would have allowed them to do that, so we see the existence of the Antikythera mechanism as a gr…

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

"Do we still have anything like this?"

In terms of buildings, the longest one might be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia

Otherwise I would say science in general.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#235

Post by anyfoo » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #234

anyfoo wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

"Do we still have anything like this?" In terms of buildings, the longest one might be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia Otherwise I would say science in general.

Oh wow, did not know about that cathedral. Yeah, that definitely qualifies.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#236

Post by Tossrock » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #216

crispyambulance wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting if the dinosaurs had tried harder to "evolve in time", they could have better survived an asteroid hit? Well, yes. It's not fair to the dinosaurs, I admit. They hardly had a chance to develop language and mathematics. They were still too busy ripping each other's faces off. And not having opposable thumbs, of course, really put a damper on technological development. Maybe in a another million yea…

I think it's a misconception that we can somehow speed up or direct "evolution", no matter what language and mathematics we have. Diverting an asteroid, however, is not evolution.

Of course you can speed up and direct evolution, it's called artificial selection and it's how we got dogs, cattle, and almost all crops.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#237

Post by lapetitejort » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

anyfoo wrote: post #231

tzs wrote: post #67

I think we tend to underestimate what ancient technology could produce because we forget that in ancient times they often operated on longer timescales than we do. With our technology for example we could make all the parts for the Antikythera mechanism in a short time. The ancient Greeks definitely had no technology that would have allowed them to do that, so we see the existence of the Antikythera mechanism as a gr…

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

> Do we still have anything like this?

In The Expanse series of novels, essentially every citizen on Mars is working towards terraforming the surface, something they know will not be achieved in their grandchildren's lifetime. This will probably be a goal very near in the future. Let's just hope it goes better than the novels.

Quantum physics was worked out for the most part within a person's lifespan. We've since slowed down, and it may take a few generations to make another great leap. In the meantime theorists and experimentalists will be formulating hypotheses and collecting data that may not be usable in their lifespan. Just look at how long we had to collect data on Mercury's orbit before we could use it to help prove General Relativity.

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#238

Post by throwawayay02 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

db48x wrote: post #31

throwawayay02 wrote: post #19

It is absolutely not a computer, though. They observed the observable astrological phenomena was cyclical and made a system of gears for their periods to predict it's state. It's interesting, but for context it is centuries younger than the first Greek geared clocks, so it's definitely not something we should be too surprised that existed.

It is absolutely a special–purpose computer. Of course it’s not a general–purpose programmable computer such as the ones we use today, but it is still a computer.

What is your dictionary definition of computer then? Is a sundial a computer because it tells the time? Is an abacus, or a Genaille–Lucas ruler, a computer?

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#239

Post by nosianu » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:42 PM UTC

anyfoo wrote: post #231

tzs wrote: post #67

I think we tend to underestimate what ancient technology could produce because we forget that in ancient times they often operated on longer timescales than we do. With our technology for example we could make all the parts for the Antikythera mechanism in a short time. The ancient Greeks definitely had no technology that would have allowed them to do that, so we see the existence of the Antikythera mechanism as a gr…

That some things in history took the span of multiple generations to finish was quite the revelation to me. The Cologne Cathedral took over 600 years to finish. As another example, this amusing video [1] tells the story of how King Louis XIV wanted a map of the entirety of his kingdom from Cassini, and how it was apparently Cassini's great grandson (4 generations over 120 years) who finally concluded the project. For…

Oh yes!

Our cities and mega-structures, including things like roads and fields.

Or more broadly, our terraforming of the planet.

When you look at time lapse videos of human developments it looks pretty similar to watching swarm insects construct big structures over long periods.

We started it a long time ago and it sped up a lot over the last few centuries, and it's still going on.

No need to look at individual pieces opf technology, all you need is to "zoom out" in both space and time to see the human swarm busily at work on a project that not a single individual understands.

If you do want to look at individual smaller pieces, things like the space station or (space/air/road) vehicles in general: We keep tinkering and changing them through space (in parallel across the world) and time (across many generations).

Re: Antikythera Mechanism: An ancient 'computer' that 'shouldn't exist' [video]

#240

Post by akira2501 » Fri, Dec 10, 2021, 10:51 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #54

rozab wrote: post #11

Jonathan Blow's talk 'Preventing the Collapse of Civilization' goes into detail about how technology can regress, with the Mechanism being one example. This kind of thing is far more common than we think, most would be surprised to learn that Ancient Greece had writing for about 600 years before forgetting it. There was no writing in Greece for over 400 years, until they adopted the Phoenician alphabet around 730 BC.…

One of the interesting possibilities for the Fermi Paradox is the fact that we've wiped out the readily accessible deposits of iron, coal, oil, etc. A second go at the industrial revolution would be much harder, if we regressed that far.

I doubt that. There's plenty of Iron that doesn't require mining to find, and it naturally accrues in the environment over time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron

We stop mining coal when it is no longer economical to do so, not when the mine is entirely depleted. There's a bunch of coal at or near the surface and will be for quite some time.

The same goes for Oil. We extract that which is easiest to extract and fraction into the products we desire, preferring to leave things like the energy intensive and more polluting "Tar Sands" behind.