Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#231

Post by int_19h » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #93

notJim wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. It seems like they should start with python or even java to learn the basics in a relatively straightforward environment, but one that also implements a lot of constructs in a fairly standard way. They also both have well-documented and large standard libraries. I feel like they should spend a bit of time on that, and then switch to JS, which is relevant for so many jobs these days.

Python and Java are probably just as bad as Javascript. I started with Javascript (and self taught) and never had many issues. Javascript is very easy to get running and play around. With Java you will spend a huge amount of time on pointless ceremony that can seem important to a beginner but is really pedantic enforcement of programming preferences from the Java designers (everything is a class for example). With Py…

Python dependency management is quite adequate for teaching - all you need to know is how to pip-install packages, really. The real headaches don't show up until you have a large app with lots of dependencies.

The other thing about Python is that, because it's already so popular for teaching, it has an ecosystem of tools around that. E.g. it has turtle graphics in the standard library (!), which is a very good way to explain loops, recursion etc for visual learners. There's also IDEs like https://thonny.org/ that visualize program execution step-by-step.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#232

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:40 PM UTC

emaginniss wrote: post #131

ggreer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we judged colleges by the same standards, I doubt they'd come off better. Normal colleges are fishing expeditions to land as many students as possible for as cheaply as possible and burden students with inescapable debt. Students have to pay even if they don't graduate or get a good job. 4-year graduation rates are below 50%. After 6 years, only 62% of college students have gotten a 4-year degree. The rest are stu…

Source control is not in the domain of computer science. You're thinking of software engineering. Many CS grads become software engineers (myself included) and we apply the concepts that we learn from CS in our jobs. CS teaches us: - How computers work (assembly, compilers) - Logic and math (automata theory, set theory, numerical analysis) - How to make computers do what we want (algorithms, data structures, performa…

> Source control is not in the domain of computer science.

Yep. Its not.

And the fact that modern day computer science institutions do not teach it, is a huge failing on the part of these programs, and is something that they should be strongly criticized for.

People go in to CS programs, believing that they are going to be taught basic skills like that, and they are tricked by these unstated lies.

But, if we really want to keep with this "cs"/software engineer distinction, then fine. Lets stop lying to students, and lets, as a society, attempt to convince people to go into software engineering more, because that is what most of these students actually want.

And lets relegate "computer science" to a much less prestigious, and much more "esoteric" field of study, that is looked down upon, in comparison to what students actually want, which is to learn software engineering.

But, unfortunately, modern day "computer science" is currently held up as the "prestigious" field of study, when it actually does not deserve that prestige. It deserves the ridicule, that modern day academics currently put on "software engineering" or "information systems", that are currently looked down upon as the fields of study that people go into, if they can't hack it in CS.

> we apply the concepts that we learn from CS in our jobs.

> that data might be useless by the time you graduate.

I am not sure where this myth comes from, that software engineering is just about some specific language, or tool.

Learning about the "concepts" of source control, or documentation, or working with a team, or writing readable code, or designing good APIs, are things that have little to do with CS, but goes beyond just "learn this specific tool".

Algorithms, and math, while can sometimes be useful, are still only one very small part of what it means to be a software engineer.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#233

Post by sunny--tech » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #228

sunny--tech wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t compare uni and bootcamps because they’re a false equivalency as someone else pointed out. The sole purpose of a bootcamp is to get a job afterwards. That’s why they market their job placement rates so much. Uni, video courses, and MOOCs are for education. Not everyone uses them to get a job, so job placement for a video course or uni compared to bootcamp doesn’t give you much info. Anecdote: I did a self-p…

The only people to who can afford to go to school to broaden their education without a clear job benefit are those born rich. In other words, the people who used to go to college pre 1970s.

Sure there are rich people that go to school for shits and giggles.

But “job benefit” isn’t exactly the same as “job placement”. I went back to school for improve my own CS fundamentals but not to immediately get a job. And many people do the same (go back to school for a promotion or for a raise).

And since those people exist, comparing job placement rates won’t tell you much since the data isn’t comparable.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#234

Post by sunny--tech » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:46 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #214

sunny--tech wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t compare uni and bootcamps because they’re a false equivalency as someone else pointed out. The sole purpose of a bootcamp is to get a job afterwards. That’s why they market their job placement rates so much. Uni, video courses, and MOOCs are for education. Not everyone uses them to get a job, so job placement for a video course or uni compared to bootcamp doesn’t give you much info. Anecdote: I did a self-p…

Wish someone told me before I got $300,000 into debt that my liberal arts degree wasn't going to help me get employment. My university was certainly not up front about that. And if they had been honest about the fact that the degree was worth fuckall in the job market I would have not wasted my money there.

I definitely agree, I do think uni degrees are severely over priced and don’t prepare people for jobs as much as people think. I have an oceanography degree that just collects dust in my parent’s attic.

But that in itself doesn’t mean what Lambda did was any better. If anything, they both need serious reforms.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#235

Post by Off » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

felistoria wrote: post #90

tayo42 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you feel you need a bootcamp? open a text editor and start programing

I've actually been off and on programming for a few years and have done my tour in tutorial hell on Udemy. Just thought maybe a bootcamp would give me experience programming with a team like you would at a job. I also have a unique opportunity next year where I will have 6 months off paid, which I plan to spend programming full time. Thought a bootcamp may be a good way to spend that time.

You might wanna check c0d3[0] or fullstackopen[1], they are both free and self paced, c0d3 is opensource and has a nice small community and some mentors/students/engineers always ready to help on Discord. Once you finish the curriculum, you get in engineering team and start contributing back and gain some real world experience.

[0] https://www.c0d3.com/

[1] https://fullstackopen.com/en/

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#236

Post by htrp » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

tschwimmer wrote: post #210

rossdavidh wrote: post #110

So, I learned to code at an odd program at Univ. of Texas - Austin, essentially a bootcamp for coders that began in the 1970's and still runs today. They take about 9 months to get you to a beginning programmer level, then you program (for UT administration) up through a kind of apprenticeship. It worked very well, and the washout rate has historically been about 10%; that is, 90% of those initially admitted go on to…

This sounds like a decent way to run an educational program but a very poor way to run a business (at least a VC backed one). You probably won't get enough volume by doing a hard screen. You need to ensure that your program is good enough that even moderate or marginal candidates come out able to find a job. Otherwise, your business is quite small.

almost sounds like education is one of those things that shouldn't be 'disrupted'

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#237

Post by t-louie » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:52 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #222

sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

> "That said, two of our best junior devs (at Arist YC S20) are Lambda School and Ironclad grads respectively, and neither of them had any background in programming and went right from bootcamp into their current positions. So it definitely works for some people." This is what I really wonder about - how many of the negative comments are from students not succeeding possibly because of unrealistic expectations around…

I think a lot of complaints would come from students that did succeed, whether by having previous programming experience or having the drive to overcome Lambda's shortcomings.

That's certainly the case for me - I landed a job after Lambda as a backend engineer, and I am/was extremely upset by Lambda's continuous deceptive language and degradation of their program

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#238

Post by gamechangr » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #171

bwing wrote: post #70

I was at Lambda when they announced the switch from 9 to 6 months and the elimination of paid team leaders. The feedback was universally negative. In a channel for open student discussion, Austen Allred deleted a poll from Slack because of how lopsided the reaction was. He explained the deletion by saying the poll was "misleading." Students then got a survey "explaining" why the change was actually a good thing by as…

I'm extremely skeptical of bootcamps, especially after learning that some of the TA's at Lambda are hired to help with teaching as little as two months into the program as students[0]. I guess that counts toward their "placement" stats! Not only that, but Lambda seems so desperate that they will offer a fresh grad at no cost to any company for a 4 week trial period. [1] I don't think I've seen a single hire out of a…

A friend of mine hired 5 bootcamp grads and said they had no backgound in programming/CS. He said 4 worked out well and the 5th ended up taking an internship across town.

So there is 5

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#239

Post by leetcrew » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:57 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #124

ericb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that the United States provides such a poor safety net for those with health issues that one person's failing health destroys the economic potential of one or more people around them. From a sheer utilitarian perspective, healthcare and safety nets are positive ROI. Imagine the job-producing startups that don't exist because "how do you pay for insurance?"

Can't people choose to refuse medical help? The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures you can't pay for. While it's morbid to consider the idea of just letting yourself die because you don't want to go into debt, it still is a choice... isn't it?

not always. you obviously don't get to choose if you're unconscious and someone calls an ambulance for you. or if you get a concussion or injure yourself while intoxicated, you might not be able to fully consent to being taken to the hospital. even DNRs are not always respected.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#240

Post by edgefield » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

shakezula wrote: post #109

bwing wrote: post #70

I was at Lambda when they announced the switch from 9 to 6 months and the elimination of paid team leaders. The feedback was universally negative. In a channel for open student discussion, Austen Allred deleted a poll from Slack because of how lopsided the reaction was. He explained the deletion by saying the poll was "misleading." Students then got a survey "explaining" why the change was actually a good thing by as…

Interestingly enough, all of these comments could have been said about my experience at $BOOTCAMP that I attended and then was later hired at as a mentor. The degradation of quality from the removal of human presence is a common narrative, and the students react to it so much more than management ever realizes. > at no point did I feel like Lambda at its top level prioritized student wellbeing over PR, costs, or metr…

Every time I’ve seen a company bought by private equity, it spells the beginning of the end. The strategy always seems to milk every last drop of cash from the business, without any long term sustainable plan. As an anecdotal case, I visited Sea World over the summer and half the concessions and shows were closed. It was still expensive and crowded and and there were service bottlenecks everywhere. Long lines for a bottle of water. Midday I said to myself, I bet this place was bought out by private equity. I looked up Sea World’s ownership structure when I got home and low and behold, private equity is involved.