Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#101

Post by t-louie » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #86

bwing wrote: post #70

I was at Lambda when they announced the switch from 9 to 6 months and the elimination of paid team leaders. The feedback was universally negative. In a channel for open student discussion, Austen Allred deleted a poll from Slack because of how lopsided the reaction was. He explained the deletion by saying the poll was "misleading." Students then got a survey "explaining" why the change was actually a good thing by as…

Why don't companies just speak plainly about these kinds of changes? "We are doing this to cut costs, which we need to do to [Survive/Buy a Yacht/Whatever]" People tend to be really understanding when you are brutally honest, and brutally cynical when you bullshit them even a little.

Lambda framed these changes as beneficial to students, for reason XYZ. I remember seeing a lot of student comments saying things like "Is lambda ok??" or "We're adults here, if lambda needs to cut costs they can tell us."

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#102

Post by bwing » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #71

sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

I think this sums up the issue with bootcamps: "That said, two of our best junior devs (at Arist YC S20) are Lambda School and Ironclad grads respectively, and neither of them had any background in programming and went right from bootcamp into their current positions. So it definitely works for some people." Some folks thrive in this environment either by natural ability or their learning style and others do not. For…

Because they have minimal admissions filter and constantly tell students not to give up, to fight imposter syndrome, student testimonials, "this is the toughest thing you'll ever do but it's so worth it."

College is gated by GPA and standardized test scores. You can quibble over the effectiveness and wisdom of this specific gate, but the upside is that mediocre students aren't going to spend a year and $30,000 convincing themselves they're going to major in CS at MIT. At Lambda, students quit their jobs, and take months out of their lives, only to find out 4 months later that programming isn't for them.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#103

Post by TameAntelope » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

I've had to hire for a few developer positions over the past ~6 months, and I was honestly shocked by how many cases of, "Have never coded in my life, but I am enrolled in Bootcamp X, and look to complete the coursework soon!" there were.

Often, you find cases of people who claim to be "software engineers" and list working at the Bootcamp company on their resume. You also get a number of "instructors" who apply for senior roles, which I find interesting.

I guess, overall, I'm not opposed to hiring someone who attended a school like this, I am just not in any way impressed by seeing it on someone's resume. For a junior role, I think it can make sense, but for anything more senior, it's become a bit frustrating to deal with these (and the contractors who pretend like they're interested in full time work until the last second).

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#104

Post by bwing » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

Gunax wrote: post #23

I think there is a double standard applied to educational reformers like MOOCs, bootcamps, and video courses. Education largely does not work for most people who enrol. Most college students do not finish, and something like a third of university students do not either. And even among those students who receive the credential, many are probably able to slide through without actually learning much. Anecdotally I think…

It's only a double standard if you're assuming the people critical of Lambda aren't also critical of selling valueless $200k college educations to checked-out students.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#105

Post by Hermitian909 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #19

In their eagerness to disrupt traditional education, all these programs forgot that the one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is teaching people with aptitude and drive. To get accepted and graduate from a reputable university you have to get good results in standardized tests and work your self through multiple courses for at least 3 years. That by itself doesn't mean anything but th…

> one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is aptitude and drive.

I think it's more accurate to say that high ranked universities try to pick people who will succeed. That can be through intelligence and drive but it can also be through the backing of an ultra-rich relative (if someone will buy the school a building to get you into your college of choice you're probably going to do fine professionally).

That aside, I think your point is largely correct. I know someone founded one of the older bootcamps and in the early days it was fairly easy to choose only smart people, often with degrees from top schools ironically. Paired with the dearth of junior candidates job placement was 99% and pretty easy.

Acceptance standards have had to drop dramatically as the number of bootcamps has increased and the backlog of smart people who'd always wanted to get into tech has been wiped out.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#106

Post by doitLP » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #19

In their eagerness to disrupt traditional education, all these programs forgot that the one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is teaching people with aptitude and drive. To get accepted and graduate from a reputable university you have to get good results in standardized tests and work your self through multiple courses for at least 3 years. That by itself doesn't mean anything but th…

Bootcamp grads (every one I've ever met) are often highly motivated and good autodidacts. Perhaps the incentive structure of something like Galvanize (née Hack Reactor) are better for weeding out the low performers -- you don't make it through those programs by not working 12h days/6.5 days/week.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#107

Post by throwaway210222 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

whoisjuan wrote: post #19

In their eagerness to disrupt traditional education, all these programs forgot that the one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is teaching people with aptitude and drive. To get accepted and graduate from a reputable university you have to get good results in standardized tests and work your self through multiple courses for at least 3 years. That by itself doesn't mean anything but th…

> (if someone will buy the school a building to get you into your college of choice).

If this was really widespread surely the campuses would have (literally) thousands of donated buildings?

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#108

Post by bwing » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #86

bwing wrote: post #70

I was at Lambda when they announced the switch from 9 to 6 months and the elimination of paid team leaders. The feedback was universally negative. In a channel for open student discussion, Austen Allred deleted a poll from Slack because of how lopsided the reaction was. He explained the deletion by saying the poll was "misleading." Students then got a survey "explaining" why the change was actually a good thing by as…

Why don't companies just speak plainly about these kinds of changes? "We are doing this to cut costs, which we need to do to [Survive/Buy a Yacht/Whatever]" People tend to be really understanding when you are brutally honest, and brutally cynical when you bullshit them even a little.

To be frank: I think the main reason is because explicit talk of cost-cutting was at odds with leadership's self-aggrandizing Twitter talk. (Disrupting the education industry, putting four-year colleges out of business, etc.)

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#109

Post by shakezula » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

bwing wrote: post #70

I was at Lambda when they announced the switch from 9 to 6 months and the elimination of paid team leaders. The feedback was universally negative. In a channel for open student discussion, Austen Allred deleted a poll from Slack because of how lopsided the reaction was. He explained the deletion by saying the poll was "misleading." Students then got a survey "explaining" why the change was actually a good thing by as…

Interestingly enough, all of these comments could have been said about my experience at $BOOTCAMP that I attended and then was later hired at as a mentor.

The degradation of quality from the removal of human presence is a common narrative, and the students react to it so much more than management ever realizes.

> at no point did I feel like Lambda at its top level prioritized student wellbeing over PR, costs, or metrics to be sold to investors.

This is exactly how I would describe it. $BOOTCAMP was around for a few years, was purchased by private equity, immediately doubled it's prices, gutted the mentoring team, and "revamped" the curriculum, which really meant they were just pushing everything to video learning.

They have made some minor curriculum improvements as of late, but they have a long way to go to get back to what the program was when it was just starting out - which was ironically much higher quality in my opinion.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#110

Post by rossdavidh » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

So, I learned to code at an odd program at Univ. of Texas - Austin, essentially a bootcamp for coders that began in the 1970's and still runs today. They take about 9 months to get you to a beginning programmer level, then you program (for UT administration) up through a kind of apprenticeship. It worked very well, and the washout rate has historically been about 10%; that is, 90% of those initially admitted go on to become professional programmers. That 10% includes people who quit, move, are expelled, etc. Truly 90% of those admitted get programmer jobs.

They have an admissions test, which is essentially an IQ test.

They would never admit to that, and their admitted population is very diverse (gender, race, age, etc.). But, they don't just admit anybody; in times of high unemployment the vast majority of people who take the test are not admitted. They also interview prospective candidates to weed out anyone with obvious, serious people skills issues. I wonder if this is what's missing from most bootcamps?