When patents attack Android • Hacker News Board

Re: When patents attack Android

#231

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:41 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #123

yanw wrote: post #77

It's sad that pro-patent asstroturf hijacks serious anti-patent discussions on HN, it's obvious that the HN sentiment towards software patents is that of disgust, yet when a passionate and rare post like this makes headlines somehow a pro-patent sentiment creeps out. Software patents are a joke, just listen to this now famous 'This American Life' piece: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/w...…

It's sad that namecalling posts like this get upvoted because they echo the "general sentiment" of HN. Herd mentality != right.

This is illuminating in a way regarding HN. Regardless of the arguments on patents, there are 2 large contingents on HN, Apple supporters and Google supporters. Thus if this were Google Vs. MS or Apple Vs.MS(with the same arguments like patents(, the arguments and modding would be too predictable... just bash MS regardless(they can't innovte so they sue) and move on with the upvotes for pro-Apple/Google comments and downvotes or no votes for proMS comments(been there, done that).

Now that this issue is Apple vs. Google, the discussion has turned into a huge number of namecalling arguments with conflicting upvotes vs. downvotes.

My take:

Patents need a MUCH higher bar than what's currently out there. Eg. RSA patent = VALID and the Apple patent of using accelerometer to rotate a display, but-on-a-mobile-phone-instead-of-camera = LAME & INVALID.

Kind of going off on a tangent, but Android didn't bring nothing much new to the UI(except maybe notifications?), it's mostly a pale imitation of iOS. WP7 on the other hand, atleast has an innovative mobile UI in the form of metro.

http://www.riagenic.com/archives/487

Some android apps are copying it verbatim...

Re: When patents attack Android

#232

Post by Terretta » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:46 AM UTC

dmethvin wrote: post #170

grellas wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This piece really is all about the Nortel patents. Google wanted the Nortel patents very badly but couldn't find enough fellow bidders whose interests matched its own to overcome the concerted efforts of Apple, Microsoft, and others who have a stake in pulling Android down. An interesting analysis of who the winners and losers were in this bidding process appears here: http://www.tangible-ip.com/2011/what-does-nortel…

> This piece really is all about the Nortel patents. You bet! Nortel is a household name for all they have done to advance technology and for the smartphone industry in particular, I am shocked that anyone could dispute the validity of these patents. We owe them a debt of gratitude for the Nortel PalmPilot, the nDroid, nPhone, the nPad, and all the other consumer products Nortel has poured their innovation into. They…

I worked at Northern Telecom. You would likely be astonished at how much they did invent that got licensed into products you take for granted.

Re: When patents attack Android

#233

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:46 AM UTC

dmethvin wrote: post #170

grellas wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This piece really is all about the Nortel patents. Google wanted the Nortel patents very badly but couldn't find enough fellow bidders whose interests matched its own to overcome the concerted efforts of Apple, Microsoft, and others who have a stake in pulling Android down. An interesting analysis of who the winners and losers were in this bidding process appears here: http://www.tangible-ip.com/2011/what-does-nortel…

> This piece really is all about the Nortel patents. You bet! Nortel is a household name for all they have done to advance technology and for the smartphone industry in particular, I am shocked that anyone could dispute the validity of these patents. We owe them a debt of gratitude for the Nortel PalmPilot, the nDroid, nPhone, the nPad, and all the other consumer products Nortel has poured their innovation into. They…

[deleted]

Re: When patents attack Android

#234

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:47 AM UTC

FxChiP wrote: post #182

FxChiP wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google extremely blatantly cloned the look and feel of the iPhone and have pursued a strategy of dumping Android in an attempt to reduce smartphones to a commodity." There are actually quite a few differences between Android and iOS in terms of interface, and there always have been -- in fact, many features found in later versions of iOS were found first in earlier versions of Android, such as copy & paste, wallpape…

(I forgot to mention also that manufacturers and carriers also seem to have a lot to do with the overall interface -- Samsung's stock Android for the Captivate, for example, does mirror iOS quite a bit, while HTC Sense probably couldn't be much more different if they tried!)

You can edit posts on here to add updates.

I would say that both iOS and Android are touch enabled versions of this from more than 20 years ago: http://images.yourdictionary.com/images/computer/_PROGMAN.GI...

For a truly innovative mobile UI, look at WP7 and Metro.

Re: When patents attack Android

#235

Post by Steko » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:48 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #216

Steko wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an easy question. The alternative to patents is either less innovation (see countries with weak IP protection) or massive secrecy. I don't see either of those as particularly compelling alternatives. Patents need some major reforms but not abolishing.

The alternative to patents is either less innovation (see countries with weak IP protection) or massive secrecy. I think you'd be hard pressed to prove that weak IP protection leads to less innovation. I'd argue that it's equally as likely that the causation is reversed; that is, countries that do more innovating will eventually have stronger IP protection, whether the actual innovators want it or not. Massive secrec…

I think it's trivial to say that weak IP protection would lead to less innovation with simple counterfactuals.

Let's go back a few years and remove all IP protections for media. Does Avatar still get a half billion dollar budget to get made?

"Massive secrecy is the current state of things even with patents. "

This is just arguing degrees. Whatever it's at now, I think the alternative is far more massive secrecy then currently.

Re: When patents attack Android

#236

Post by kooshball » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:52 AM UTC

adding more content for discussions

http://twitter.com/#!/bradsmi/status/98902130412355585

Brad Smith (Microsoft General Counsel): Google says we bought Novell patents to keep them from Google. Really? We asked them to bid jointly with us. They said no.

Re: When patents attack Android

#237

Post by Terretta » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:53 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #145

econgeeker wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to hear an anti-patent argument that wasn't just repetition of the "patents are wrong" ideology. I'm actually neutral on patents in the sense of "what would be best in an ideal world". But the bottom line is this- my work is not free unless I choose to donate it. Thus in exchange for giving you my work, I'm going to require a license. If you steal it, you've stolen it, just as if you stole a car. But wait-…

If you want my technology enough to steal it, then my technology has value, and it is property, just as anything else I might build with my own hands is property. Perhaps, but the market for this technology is completely inelastic. Regardless of the money/effort/time required to develop this technology, you get the exact same monopoly guarantee in the form of the patent. And you can charge whatever you want for a lic…

For a technology that took significant money/effort/time to develop, I can agree with patent protection.

An odd position, as it penalizes the thoughtfully elegant lateral thinking solution, which is arguably harder to do.

Re: When patents attack Android

#238

Post by recoiledsnake » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 12:58 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #156

yanw wrote: post #77

It's sad that pro-patent asstroturf hijacks serious anti-patent discussions on HN, it's obvious that the HN sentiment towards software patents is that of disgust, yet when a passionate and rare post like this makes headlines somehow a pro-patent sentiment creeps out. Software patents are a joke, just listen to this now famous 'This American Life' piece: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/w...…

What I always wonder about with every Apple story on HN is if all the sycophants are just willing fanboys or if PR types are being paid to work HN comments.

Sorry to see you get downvoted,I too suffered the same fate from Apple fans a lot of times on tech sites.

The answer is simple:

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-is-a-religion-neuroscie...

They don't need paid PR when the best techies like some of the ones on HN are abject fans of their beloved company. Gruber makes thousands per ad off his pro-Apple RSS feed ads.

Re: When patents attack Android

#239

Post by glenstein » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 1:00 AM UTC

davidu wrote: post #172

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this like nation-states trying to prevents wars so that they can compete on building effective societies? It would be perversely cynical to suggest that the nations more confident in their ability to deliver effective societies were somehow cheating by trying to prevent the needless destruction and waste of wars.

It's not like that at all. Your analogy is completely lost on me.

I'm generally a lurker, and not a programmer, not highly opinionated on software patenting, but to me the analogy was perfectly clear.

Bogus patents = military power

useful innovations = effective societies.

Trying to remove bogus patents/military power and shift the center of gravity over to useful innovations/effective societies, isn't nefarious despite advantaging one particular party.

Re: When patents attack Android

#240

Post by Steko » Thu, Aug 04, 2011, 1:04 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #186

Steko wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's incredible about it. That a company that copies things might infringe patents? Do I realize that Apple infringes patents? Yes. Are you aware that Apple doesn't cry about how it's the end of the world and we're all going to have to pay more for the next iphone because they had to write Nokia a check for Nokia's previous and substantial innovations to mobile?

That a company that copies things might infringe patents? Wow, seems like you have a pretty big bias here. That hurts your argument quite a bit. Are you aware that Apple doesn't cry about how it's the end of the world and we're all going to have to pay more for the next iphone because they had to write Nokia a check for Nokia's previous and substantial innovations to mobile? It's one thing to license a patent filed a…

"It's quite another to collude with other companies to buy up huge patent portfolios for the sole purpose of extorting your competitors and stifling competition.."

Wait I'm biased but according to you, Apple is using this for the sole purpose of extortion? Come off of it. Back here in the real world Apple has probably paid out many times more in patent suits then it has or will collect any time soon. Why can't Apple be using these defensively as well?