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When patents attack Android

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161–170 of 291 posts

Re: When patents attack Android

#162
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're talking about patents here. Even if what you say is true, does that mean they "deserve" to be crushed by bogus patents? Bogus patents aren't helping anyone, and in at least several cases they have been used by others to hunt Apple and Microsoft, too.

I think you are looking at it inside a box, as an isolated issues. Patent litigation is simply a weapon used by companies offensively or defensively. When in a fight with your competitors you look at your weapons and theirs. When evaluating the visible weaponry of their competitors they see patent litigation near the top of the list. When they look at their arsenal of weapons, they do not see patent litigation at the…

Isn't this like nation-states trying to prevents wars so that they can compete on building effective societies? It would be perversely cynical to suggest that the nations more confident in their ability to deliver effective societies were somehow cheating by trying to prevent the needless destruction and waste of wars.

Re: When patents attack Android

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when Apple and Microsoft buy bankrupted company's patents and use them to sue Google, they are not patent trolling? What are they then? Innovating? This is plain patent trolling and make those two companies effective patent trolls no matter how you try to turn the story. Even if they are innovating on other fronts. Just like I can save someone's life one day and kill someone the next day. That doesn't mean I'm not…

> So when Apple and Microsoft buy bankrupted company's patents and use them to sue Google Has this happened?

Not Google but OEM yes.

Re: When patents attack Android

#164
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is ludicrous. My position on software patents mirrors the general complaint about software patents -- overwhelmingly they provide a monopoly on trivial, obvious, or inevitable "inventions". Your position on multitouch alone is a perfect example, really -- they didn't invent the hardware, didn't make the first implementation, and it had been predicted by mainstream media a decade in advance, but because…

Apple didn't patent anything first, they bought the inventor and paid him. Go ask the guy who made fingerworks whether he is better off with Apple paying him or if Google had just ripped his shit off.

"Apple didn't patent anything first, they bought the inventor and paid him."

http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Se...

Re: When patents attack Android

#165
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think software engineers should absolutely be involved, but more like "expert witnesses". The judgement is better left in the hands of law people with common sense. And really the merits of various patents these companies holds are not the focus of my argument, I understand you feel quite differently.

> I think software engineers should absolutely be involved, but more like "expert witnesses". The judgement is better left in the hands of law people with common sense. I can't disagree more. Should common sense be how we decide what medical option to pursue? Or whether a mathematical proof is valid? Or even whether a legal argument is allowed - in the US judges determine that in many case, not juries? What possible…

Because there is no truth in "trivial" and "obvious", there is only value, as in "guilty" and "good".

Re: When patents attack Android

#166
post #23

I keep seeing this idea that Apple is filing patent lawsuits because they are afraid of their competitors and their business is on the verge of collapse, and I just don't understand. Their business is better than ever, breaking records every quarter. I think maybe people are reading too much into market-share figures, or projecting their wishes onto reality. Also, did Google not just try to buy the Nortel patents? We…

Had Google won the auction, then we likely wouldn't be having this discussion. Google would have had a huge stockpile of patents with which to countersue Apple, Microsoft, and Oracle, the result being a cross-licensing deal where everyone goes back to actually making things. Google's loss created a mismatch in power, so the cartel can sue them without fear of reprisal. It's this mismatch that has led to the current s…

google doesn't sue to hinder competition. At Apple and MS its a regualar practice. And yes MS is making more money off of Android than WP7

Re: When patents attack Android

#167
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is ludicrous. My position on software patents mirrors the general complaint about software patents -- overwhelmingly they provide a monopoly on trivial, obvious, or inevitable "inventions". Your position on multitouch alone is a perfect example, really -- they didn't invent the hardware, didn't make the first implementation, and it had been predicted by mainstream media a decade in advance, but because…

Apple didn't patent anything first, they bought the inventor and paid him. Go ask the guy who made fingerworks whether he is better off with Apple paying him or if Google had just ripped his shit off.

I'd rather ask society if they're better off, because that is the argument that you're trying to make isn't it? That patents are a good idea, not that they're a system that it's easy for individuals to game for financial reward.

Re: When patents attack Android

#168

The problem with this is that prior to the introduction of the iPhone, android was designed to look like and work on phones like the blackberry. It was a better feature phone OS. After the iPhone came out, Google changed courses and counterfeited the iPhone. If google wanted to compete, they could have spent 7 years investing in fundamental innovations-- like Apple did with touch-- to create their own new UI. Maybe t…

"The problem with this is that prior to the introduction of the iPhone, android was designed to look like and work on phones like the blackberry. It was a better feature phone OS. After the iPhone came out, Google changed courses and counterfeited the iPhone.

If google wanted to compete, they could have spent 7 years investing in fundamental innovations-- like Apple did with touch-- to create their own new UI. Maybe they could have done a voice driven phone. OR, if touch was inevitable, they could have done their own, innovative take on touch UIs.

They did not. They turned around and cloned the iPhone and then gave the OS away for free."

Fundamentally incorrect; the T-Mobile G1 running Android 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 (with modification), did, in fact, come with its own user interface, utilizing widgets on the home pages, wallpapers before iOS was even capable of such a thing unjailbroken, and a different method by which the applications are accessed -- those particular elements are present to this day in Android software. Notably, it wasn't until 2.x that the G1 gained multitouch. Back then, Android's home screen metaphor more resembled the standard desktop of a computer than anything else -- of course, with the addition of widgets. On top of everything else, Android did notifications in a brand new way -- in fact, in a way that was so innovative, Apple ripped them off in iOS 5!

Also, in 2.x, Android gained the feature of dynamic image wallpaper -- i.e. "live wallpapers" -- where the wallpaper is quite dynamic. This is a feature Apple simply does not have yet.

Furthermore, there are different interface conventions in application design, different methods of application development -- in fact, an entirely different language with a platform-agnostic binary format, and, in general, different UI mechanisms for everything.

This is not even to mention copy & paste, which Android had before iOS proper did.

In short: they did not clone the iPhone nearly as much as you say they did. Manufacturers are the ones that did that later, with form factor.

"They were able to do this because the patent system requires Apple to publicly disclose their inventions. In exchange for this disclosure, Apple gets a monopoly on the use of their inventions. If you don't like this, that's fine, amend the constitution, and take it up with your congressman."

Actually, just because Apple publicly disclosed their patent doesn't mean Google read the patent and purposely implemented anything exactly the same way Apple described. In fact, I'm absolutely positive that multitouch doesn't work quite the same way simply because the API to access touch is completely different. The end (user-facing) result winds up the same, though -- but the end result is what's at issue here, isn't it? To that end, I'd say, sure, multi-touch is copied -- but, there aren't a whole lot of common-sense ways, on a screen like that, to enlarge something (beyond buttons and such).

"Google is now claiming that the government should step in and use force-- that is, decrees backed by men with guns and the threat of violence-- to allow google to steal other companies innovations and get away with it."

Blatant, incorrect hyperbole -- unless you can back up the "use force" part. No, the DoJ is stepping in because the major parties involved with the Nortel patent acquisition are also direct competitors with Google -- in fact, the parties are all the major mobile companies that aren't Google. These are companies that did not invent or patent the technologies themselves, but the patents are going to them and are potentially usable for the purpose of crushing Android with litigation rather than by the merit of the products themselves.

"Think about that. Google cannot compete fair and square, so they steal their competitors technology. When this is pointed out, they call for the use of violence to let them get away with it! Talk about Doing Evil!"

"They call for the use of violence" -- citation needed. Honestly, the fact that Google's competitors seem to be (may not be, but the patent acquisition seems to be far more than coincidence here) colluding to squash Google by means of patent litigation is more evidence that Google's competitors can't compete "fair and square", that is, by technical merit.

"People only say 'anti-competitive' when someone is competing successfully and they don't like it."

This sounds like something that would be strangely pro-Microsoft back when MS was abusing its monopoly... but a move to block new competition from entering a market, or a move to exclude (by disqualification) a very specific competitor seems pretty anti-competitive to me.

"Either way, Once again, Apple-- the only company in Silicon Valley with a track record of genuine innovation--"

Are you ignoring Facebook or something? I'm fairly certain Google's search engine indexer is genuinely innovative, too. Oh my.

"If its taken away from them, it will not be justice, and it will not be moral."

If it's not, it will not be moral to allow three out of the four mobile companies to arbitrarily kick the fourth out just because none of them can top it or stop it on technical merit alone.

Oh -- as for Apple being the most innovative company... http://www.gsmarena.com/showpic.php3?sImg=newsimg/11/06/ios-...

Re: When patents attack Android

#169
If this was coming from an open source community (instead of Google) that's developing something like Android to give away for free, I would have understood. But, Google gives away Android for free so that it can sell loads of them and there by locking down most of the users (non-geeks) to the Google Ad universe and earn its revenue by selling loads and loads of Ads. Its not like Google genuinely cares about the expensive mobile industry and its actual intent is to provide cheap phones to those who can't afford it (on the lines of OLPC). While whether or not patents and specifically Software patents is good or bad for the society is a different argument, this issue doesn't deserve the same sympathy that companies who are attacked by patent trolls do.

Re: When patents attack Android

#170
post #77

It's sad that pro-patent asstroturf hijacks serious anti-patent discussions on HN, it's obvious that the HN sentiment towards software patents is that of disgust, yet when a passionate and rare post like this makes headlines somehow a pro-patent sentiment creeps out. Software patents are a joke, just listen to this now famous 'This American Life' piece: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/w...…

This piece really is all about the Nortel patents. Google wanted the Nortel patents very badly but couldn't find enough fellow bidders whose interests matched its own to overcome the concerted efforts of Apple, Microsoft, and others who have a stake in pulling Android down. An interesting analysis of who the winners and losers were in this bidding process appears here: http://www.tangible-ip.com/2011/what-does-nortel…

> This piece really is all about the Nortel patents.

You bet! Nortel is a household name for all they have done to advance technology and for the smartphone industry in particular, I am shocked that anyone could dispute the validity of these patents. We owe them a debt of gratitude for the Nortel PalmPilot, the nDroid, nPhone, the nPad, and all the other consumer products Nortel has poured their innovation into. They gave so much, in fact, that they went into bankruptcy. If it wasn't for Nortel, why, who knows where Apple, Google, Microsoft, and the others would be? The bones of Nortel are probably brimming with innovative new product ideas that only need cash from Apple or Microsoft to see the light of day.

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