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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#231

Post by chipsa »

theluketaylor wrote: post #206
chipsa wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no particular reason why PHEVs have to be worse than ICE for cargo space. The new Ford Maverick is designed as a hybrid first, for example. I know they don't have a PHEV version yet, but it's expected to come as one in a future model year.

There isn't a PHEV version of Maverick yet, but I'm sure there will be since the platform is shared with Ford Escape which has a PHEV. Notably, the PHEV Escape loses storage space compared to its hybrid and pure combustion siblings. PHEVs need batteries an order of magnitude bigger in size and capacity compared to regular hybrids and they need to go somewhere. Using skateboard batteries for PHEV would help mitigate t…

The mechanics are related with the Escape, but AFAIK, it's an entirely different body. The claim I've seen is that the regular hybrid version doesn't take up all of the battery space available, and that area is designated for the PHEV version when available.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#232

Post by thehappypm »

Hypx_ wrote: post #216
trixie_ wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lose efficiency when using electricity for electrolysis, compression and transportation of hydrogen. And then through the fuel cell itself which is used to charge a battery. That entire roundabout process results in a pretty low efficiency for hydrogen. Why not skip all those steps and put the electricity right into a battery with little efficiency loss. https://insideevs.com/news/406676/battery-electric-hydrogen…

The simplest counter argument is that it’s just cheaper to go with hydrogen. People have created this narrative where “efficiency = cost” when in reality it’s more expensive to go that far in efficiency.

In what way is hydrogen cheaper?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#233

Post by asdff »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #154
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But can that 48 miles be exclusively electric or does it fall back to turning on the ICE every time you punch the accelerator? This is my grief of every PHEV I've tried other than the Volt; they cannot be driven as a true EV even when the battery is full because they use the ICE for performance boost, etc. The Volt runs better without the ICE.

I have the Prius prime, it gets a little over 25 mi EV-only and the only time it needs to burn gasoline is if you turn on the windshield defroster because the heat pump can only do so much I guess. But the performance feels much sportier in EV mode and it has no trouble pulling up to 80mph without any ICE

25mi EV only is like an electric scooter range.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#234

Post by missedthecue »

user_7832 wrote: post #103
bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

Not to exactly counter your point, but Toyota has been doing shady things for a while so I’m not sure if they can be given the benefit of doubt. The things include - going against those new California emissions standards when Trump rolled back emission limits, donating heavily to the politicians who wanted to overthrow the 2020 US elections, and having deals with Panasonic to block easy public access to batteries (be…

By "donating heavily" you mean $56k across dozens of officials.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#235

Post by asdff »

Robotbeat wrote: post #180
kongolongo wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in the case of urban areas, outside of some select locations, the charging infra is just not there for BEVs. Even if there were good EV infra in urban areas, a compelling case could be made for improving and upgrading public transportation instead which is going to be more efficient than any personal vehicle - including BEVs.

A sidenote but unless public transport vehicles are electric, they won’t be better than battery electric vehicles. Typical diesel buses with typical occupancy rates have worse emissions per passenger mile then, say, a model three with a typical occupancy rate and grid emissions factor in US. BEVs are fantastic, have SOME level of infrastructure literally everywhere with electricity (you literally can charge from a 12…

Most bus transit systems are in process to convert their fleet to EV. Most today don't run diesel, but CNG.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#236

Post by nkingsy »

throw0101a wrote: post #62
nkingsy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. From what I know about li-ion, the larger battery should expect many more charge cycles before degradation than the smaller one, given the same power draw. There would have to be some kind of argument that the bigger battery leaves capacity on the table during its life somehow, which would mean the battery…

> I wonder if these arguments take into account decreased battery life with a smaller battery in a plug in hybrid. I would think that it would be primarily a function of how much of the battery is treated as a 'reserve'. If you have 10-20% set aside that is not "useable", regardless of total capacity, then you could get similar cycles. There's also the possibility for using super-caps taking some of the brunt for hig…

80-20 cycling is important, but discharge rate is as well.

If each cell in a 15kw battery discharges at 1c to move a car, each cell in a 45kw battery discharges at .33c.

Same goes for charging.

Might be diminishing returns, but discharge rates over 1c harm longevity.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1397110

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#237

Post by rantwasp »

ashtonkem wrote: post #222
rantwasp wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it FUD though? were do you draw the line between legal and illegal. right or wrong? I think it’s absolutely expected for Toyota to attempt to protect their financial interests.

It’s legal for them to do so, I just think they’re bad people for doing it. Attempting to slow down the de-carbonization of our transit because your company bet wrong is just evil, no way around it.

i agree with you in principle, but (there’s always a but) there are other more impactful things that can be done to cut down carbon emissions (modern cars are already stupid-efficient).

Who has the mora authority to declare that Toyota should roll over and die to attain some goal that may or may not be achievable?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#238

Post by asdff »

eloff wrote: post #35
ajmurmann wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why mandate how emissions are cut, instead of heavily taxing carbon emissions and having the market find the best solution?

In general I agree with you. Simply taxing things with negative externalities enough to cover the true cost would simply and conclusively fix a lot of things we struggle with, faster and without relying on politicians. I think it's politically very unpopular, but the economic theory behind it is extremely sound.

If you priced everything according to the negative externalities they cause, you would have poor people unable to afford $10/gal milk and probably pay more than the dairy farmer subsidy in healthcare costs related to poor nutrition for this entire class of people. I think nuance is needed, but the danger is that this nuance is where industries see opportunities for regulatory capture. Sometimes I think the American political system is too brittle with too much of a focus on who has the most money in the room to perform needed change. Everything in recent decades seems to be a half measure that comes too little too late.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#239

Post by jedberg »

Clubber wrote: post #217
jedberg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an easy solution to that though. You redistribute all the money from a carbon tax back to the people, either equally to everyone, or better, based on income. We already know that wealthy people generate the most carbon. If that activity was taxed and then the money was given to poorer people who can't afford to transition to clean energy, it would still be a net win, because it will reduce emissions while mak…

The US would most likely invest the money, either partially or fully into the war machine.

People like to rip on the US war machine, but as far as percent of GDP, the US isn't even the biggest spender. Also, the entire world benefits from the US army, which helps protect global trade routes. For example the US patrols for pirates off the coast of Africa, protecting ships that are taking goods from one country to another in which the US has no involvement in any of it.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#240

Post by cwkoss »

paholg wrote: post #67
seph-reed wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope liquid democracy can someday become a thing. The fact that an idea can be both good and unpopular is -- IMO -- the linchpin of almost every other problem we face.

Even worse, some ideas are both good and popular, and politicians still don't get behind them.

Yuup. 80% of democrats (and a majority of Americans) support Medicare for All but the DNC rejected it from their 2020 platform. Sadly, lobbyists are running our party system to a much greater extent than the citizenry.

https://www.kff.org/slideshow/public-opinion-on-single-payer...

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