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PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

pine64.org

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Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#231

Post by dataflow »

throwawayswede wrote: post #230
dataflow wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what to tell you other than you probably haven't used any recent version of these software. Well you would be wrong. I have LibreOffice 7.1.4.2 in front of me right now and it still can't correctly render stuff I had from 2014. The text boxes and stuff all end up in massively wrong positions, like they always have. (And they render fine in Word, like they always have.) Similarly, first Excel spreadshee…

> Similarly, first Excel document I try to open in it gives this error: Warning loading {document}: The data could not be loaded completely because the maximum number of columns per sheet was exceeded. That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise. I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format. My experience with Writer is wonderful. Have not had any issues and I know many peop…

> Apparently, like many others in this entire thread, you've totally missed the point. I wasn't saying it's "as" high quality as M$ word (although I disagree with the usage of the word high quality here) but just that it is high quality by itself. This is known as an irrelevant conclusion

The entire discussion has been regarding this verbatim quote from the top comment: "open source projects will always provide a lower quality than commercial ones". If you replied regarding some other premise, then you're the one missing the point and changing the topic, not me.

> That's not exactly a fair assessment exercise

It sure is fair to me. Just saying this doesn't make it true. And a reality check is warranted here: "it's not fair" is not going to be a satisfactory response to any user you're trying to win over.

> I'm not sure what format is the original excel file, but xlsb is a proprietary format.

No, it's an open format [1], and LibreOffice supports opening it... with poor quality. And again: even if it was, you're not going to win over or satisfy any users with an "it's a proprietary format so we don't support that many columns" excuse. They expect their office programs to dance around their documents, not the other way around.

[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/openspecs/office_file_forma...

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#232

Post by deltaonefour »

fsflover wrote: post #229
deltaonefour wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux does crash. I've seen it crash yesterday. It depends on the hardware you're using. When it crashes it's 100% a problem in kernel space. Driver issues, compatibility issues. It is NOT an app. The OS should not give the privilege to an app to crash anything else other than itself. What you MEANT to say is Linux crashes less than before and likely never crashes for certain hardware. OVERALL linux will still crash…

> It depends on the hardware you're using. Buy hardware designed for Linux and you will have no problems. Ideally, with preinstalled Linux.

Hardware designed for linux. What does that even mean? Does intel make CPUs designed for linux? No. You don't know what you're talking about.

All hardware on my system have drivers available from the manufacture SO ALL of the hardware is "designed" for linux. It's just like the OP said there is poor support. So there's bugs in the software because all bug fixing resources are aimed at fixing Windows issues. So basically even the THOUGHT of buying specifically designed hardware for windows is non-existent for windows because basically it ALWAYS works.

For windows the OS and hardware are designed to always work and that's all they care about. This is a major major feature that Linux DOES NOT have. Linux is inferior in every way on this aspect.

No user cares about the morality or the reasoning behind why this windows works with so much hardware. They are concerned with tools that help them achieve their objective. Linux is definitively worse than this on many aspects than windows OR OSX.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#233

Post by dataflow »

akho wrote: post #99
dataflow wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Examples are so abundant and obvious that I'm not sure I need to mention any, but for the sake of argument. In software: Linux, Gimp, Firefox, VLC, Blender, OpenOffice If you picked an average computer user at random (read: not people on HN) and had them try out Linux, Gimp, and OpenOffice, I don't think they'd agree with you that they're as high-quality as their commercial alternatives.

Average users use Linux all the time, it’s in everything. You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?.. Try giving an average user Photoshop. See how they weep. These thought experiments are really hard to apply to software on complex domains. OpenOffice is indeed a terrible example.

> You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?

Or cost... or abundance of existing tooling for... or a ton more factors that are all considered. And quality itself is multidimensional. Something might be good for engineering flexibility but terrible for exposure to end users, or vice versa. And engineers can work around shortcomings much better than end users can.

OSes aren't like Javascript frameworks. There are only so many viable choices for a given domain. It's like if someone chose T-Mobile over AT&T and Verizon and you automatically concluded it's because of quality.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#234

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

dsr_ wrote: post #108
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pinephone is completely orthogonal to this." Do you mean Pine64 has no intention of trying to control what people do with the device? Did anyone ever try to "root" the Sidekick? Always interested to hear more about it.

I mean that that the Pinephone is not a DangerOS device, so anything that I say about the Danger Hiptop has nothing to do with the Pinephone.

Given that each has its own name, and the names look and sound different, maybe it's safe to assume no one is going to confuse the two.

Is there such a thing as a "DangerOS device", or are there devices that can or cannot run "DangerOS" (e.g., NetBSD plus proprietary software). The official slogan of the open source project is "Of course it runs NetBSD!" not "Of course it is a NetBSD device."

Anything said about an OS does not necessarily have anything to do with the device it runs on. Nor does anything said about a device necessarily have anything to do the OS being run on it. That's why we can have OS that run on a variety of devices (e.g., NetBSD, Linux, etc.), as well as devices on which we can boot a variety of OS (e.g., RPi, Pinephone).

Unfortunately this important distinction is carefully omitted from tech company marketing, ignored by sycophant tech bloggers, tech journalists and everyone who follows and subscribes to their brand of anti-competitive "innovation". Hopefully more hardware like RPi and Pinephone can change some people's thinking and allow them to see the possibilities that are constantly being suppressed in the "war on general purpose computing".

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#235

Post by pjmlp »

akho wrote: post #225
pjmlp wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having fun enjoying the free software from PlayStation 4 OS? I advise you to read about Zephyr OS, FreeRTOS, Azure RTOS, Fuchsia, NuttX,....

Zephyr is Apache licensed, FreeRTOS MIT, Fuchsia BSD/MIT/Apache, NuttX Apache. ThreadX is the only one on your list that's not free software, and the success it achieved over its 24 years of existence is not anything to write home about. A closed-source OS in this space has no real chance, as it has to be adapted by hardware makers. Microsoft may be able to provide the backing for wider ThreadX adoption, but don't ho…

I could bother to explain, but will let the Apples, Amazons, Facebooks,Sonys of the world let you know how the rules of the game in big boys club.

Again, where is the source code to Playstation OS 4 or clang bitcode changes for watchOS?

Got to love FOSS.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#236

Post by pjmlp »

rglullis wrote: post #224
pjmlp wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, yet another reboot on the GNU/Linux desktop stack, I lost count of them.

You are really grasping at straws here. We are talking about Linux support for devices in a traditional work environment and I can seriously say that has been more than adequate for more than 10 years. How many backward-incompatible API changes does Apple push every couple of OS versions? How many dongles were people forced to buy to continue using whatever peripheral they had already working? Can you please stop wit…

First you need to place the goals on the original position, I wasn't the one starting to talk about audio or whatever.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#237

Post by rglullis »

pjmlp wrote: post #236
rglullis wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are really grasping at straws here. We are talking about Linux support for devices in a traditional work environment and I can seriously say that has been more than adequate for more than 10 years. How many backward-incompatible API changes does Apple push every couple of OS versions? How many dongles were people forced to buy to continue using whatever peripheral they had already working? Can you please stop wit…

First you need to place the goals on the original position, I wasn't the one starting to talk about audio or whatever.

The position was quite clear: Linux is more than capable to work as Desktop or business computer for the most common industries and that its support for common peripheral devices has been pretty much in "just works" territory, provided these peripherals are not using or dependent on extremely new protocols or standards.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#238

Post by 29083011397778 »

dogma1138 wrote: post #130
katmannthree wrote: post #3

The pinephone is great, in fact I'm typing this comment from mine. That said, fair warning to anyone thinking about getting one: it's slow, buggy, and flat out unreliable if you need to be able to receive / answer calls and texts for anything important (e.g. work). Once they get the software worked out over the next few years though, it'll be the best thing out there. No ads, no bullshit, just a phone with a mainline…

I think the main thing that PinePhone has going for them is the price $150-200 for what essentially is a hobbyist device at this point is more than reasonable. This is in stark contrast to the Purism phones which offer about the same hardware (slightly better CPU but worse GPU) at flagship prices. This is somewhat also proof that the prices that Purism charges aren’t due to lack of economy of scale you can make these…

> the prices that Purism charges aren’t due to lack of economy of scale you can make these devices on the cheap

I've never understood that to be their argument. Purism is actively paying people to improve the mobile experience of Linux. They can't charge for software, and they certainly don't get a cut of app sales like Google or Apple. So to fund the devs that write the software, they mark up their hardware.

This improves mobile Linux, makes for a reasonably sustainable company, and gives Pine64 a free ride regarding software like Phosh, Phoc, Calls, Chatty, etc. So without having to pay for developers, Pine can sell their hardware dramatically cheaper. Simply put, I don't think "Good software isn't cheap" should be a surprise to anyone here.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#239

Post by akho »

dataflow wrote: post #233
akho wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average users use Linux all the time, it’s in everything. You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly?.. Try giving an average user Photoshop. See how they weep. These thought experiments are really hard to apply to software on complex domains. OpenOffice is indeed a terrible example.

> You’d need to ask the developers writing all these router OSes, smart televisions, Android phones, … whether they chose Linux because of its high quality or, I guess, randomly? Or cost... or abundance of existing tooling for... or a ton more factors that are all considered. And quality itself is multidimensional. Something might be good for engineering flexibility but terrible for exposure to end users, or vice ver…

Abundance of existing tooling is part of quality, yes. Practical absence of non-free choices is also a sign that free software does things right in this domain.

I do not understand the argument. Linux won. It won because it — for a variety of reasons — fits certain domains well.

Re: PinePhone – Open Source Smart Phone Supported by Major Linux Phone Projects

#240

Post by akho »

pjmlp wrote: post #235
akho wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zephyr is Apache licensed, FreeRTOS MIT, Fuchsia BSD/MIT/Apache, NuttX Apache. ThreadX is the only one on your list that's not free software, and the success it achieved over its 24 years of existence is not anything to write home about. A closed-source OS in this space has no real chance, as it has to be adapted by hardware makers. Microsoft may be able to provide the backing for wider ThreadX adoption, but don't ho…

I could bother to explain, but will let the Apples, Amazons, Facebooks,Sonys of the world let you know how the rules of the game in big boys club. Again, where is the source code to Playstation OS 4 or clang bitcode changes for watchOS? Got to love FOSS.

I do not understand what you are talking about. This started as a proposition that “normal users do not use Linux”. They obviously do. You are sore that corporations use BSD licensed code without letting us see or modify their forks. So am I. What does that have to do with the topic?
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