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How to Work Hard

paulgraham.com

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: How to Work Hard

#231
post #173

Reading about Bill Gates not taking a day off in his 20s doesn’t inspire me to work harder at all. If anything, it’s a miscalculation on Gates’s part, assuming he’d actually enjoy a day off. Would he have been materially less successful if he took a single day off in his 20s? Probably not. How about a week, or a week a year? Two weeks?

I don't think this is it - he is an obsessive person. He was working that hard because he wanted to. I mean look at him now, he isn't exactly playing golf or swanning about on yachts.

I meant to allow for that with the ‘assuming he’d actually enjoy a day off’ caveat, but even so, there’s this, from Walter Isaacson:

“Every spring, as they have for more than a decade, Gates spends a long weekend with Winblad at her beach cottage on the Outer Banks of North Carolina, where they ride dune buggies, hang-glide and walk on the beach.”

Yachts? How about this:

https://moneyinc.com/a-closer-look-at-serene-the-330-million...

He also does play golf, is a member of Augusta National, and, apparently, has been living at a golf resort for months.

Re: How to Work Hard

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

Is the average for a developer really that low (in the US)? In the Boston-area market (now remote, but same pay scale), we're paying more than that for fresh college hires. Get hired, contribute to your 401(k), buy a house, and do that for 15 years and in most markets I think your change in net worth over the 15 years is more likely to be >$1MM than less.

According to U.S. Bureau of Labor Stats May 2018 for the job category "Software Developers, Applications" mean salary is $108K. They provide percentiles 10% at 66K and 90% at 161K.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/2018/may/oes151132.htm

Re: How to Work Hard

#233
I gotta be honest, I hate working hard. At least for money anyway. I hate the amount of time and mindshare it takes and the way it's looked up to as some virtue by the rest of society; the hallmark of some truly good person.

I'm sure there will be knee jerk reactions to downvote this just because of how programmed it is into society that hard work is a noble endeavor, and perhaps it is, for a certain class of problems that humanity occasionally faces where there is no easy way to solve them except by working hard. But making money and living a good life should not be one of those problems.

You really don't know how pointless it is to work hard until you make easy money. It's not uncommon for my investment portfolio to have a gain or loss of $20-30k in a day, I've made over $200k in the past two months, not really doing anything. My job itself pays close to $200k a year, but I justify working it by the fact that it's fairly easy and really I only put in about 4 hours of solid work per day.

I feel fairly secure in not being a very ambitious person anymore. I used to be, back when I was young and hopeful and immersed in the whole startup scene with hopes of making it big and changing the world for the better. But no startup I was ever part of ever made it big. Worse, as I got to know the world I didn't see the point in trying to change it. It is what it is and that's all it will ever be.

So yea, I've accepted I'm not one of those people destined to save the world through hard work. Instead I'm here to savor the fruits of their hard labor, and my goal now is to live as richly as possible with the least amount of effort. There is so much to enjoy in life and not enough time to enjoy it if you spend all your time working hard.

Nothing makes me feel as good as working smart, or even not working at all, and yet still producing the same amount of results as someone who has worked very hard. It is intoxicating, and knowing that others would be doing the same if I was working hard right now makes it very unappealing to work hard myself. I am cursed in that I will never be able to work hard again.

Re: How to Work Hard

#234
Yet another Paul Graham stream of consciousness. He presents a thesis but forgets to support it as he streams out another essay. I take issue with this fundamental thesis: "There are three ingredients in great work: natural ability, practice, and effort."

He doesn't distinguish between practice and effort. In my view, practice takes effort and effort occurs during practice, they are two dimensions of the same thing, which is really just "experience." You don't gain experience without effortful practice.

Furthermore, where is his mention of accountability to a team? One of the greatest motivators is having helpful allies who tell you what they want from you, provide tips how to do it (leveraging their experience), and then give you the keys you need to work hard and get great things done.

Another lackluster article from PG that rockets to the top of HN within an hour. There are much better writers out there, I'm not sure why his work is so lauded.

Re: How to Work Hard

#235
This article has more than quadrupled my existing opinion that the concept of hard work is largely a fabrication designed to show off to other people.

If anyone’s seriously read this article end to end and didn’t conclude: “Wow, Paul is really struggling to back this up.” You might be in junior high.

The reality is that inflation and monetary policy combined with degradation of schools means you have to play a completely different life game to succeed now. And “working hard” while being a waiter or bartender isn’t going to get you there.

Paul is really trying to avoid the fact that unless you are gaining extremely highly valued skills in the exact right industry at the exact right schools at the exact right time, working hard is a complete waste of time. And everyone can feel it at a gut level.

People know when their work isn’t going to be rewarded. And in this era, you won’t be rewarded 90% of the time for Most skills or most efforts.

Re: How to Work Hard

#236
post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

> then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living I wish we could make the "inequality" point without resorting to hyperbole like this. The median American lives a life that is the envy of 99.9% percent of people who have ever walked this earth including most monarchs and emperors, and certainly >90% of people alive today. I do agree that something needs to be done to keep inequality in check; I just happ…

"create more problems than they solve."

Like what? Or was this ironic use of your own hyperbole?

Re: How to Work Hard

#237
post #181
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working hard in the mailroom or stocking shelves at a grocery store isn’t going to translate into a successful software career Right, but it might lead to satisfaction regardless. Even the most menial positions are often rewarded. I have worked a few menial jobs, and effort is even more important. When I worked hard and went the extra mile when required, I got rewarded with better shifts, more flexibility and more…

Putting that extra effort into forming a union might pay off a lot more than trying to impress MegaMart AI Scheduler v3.6 Putting the extra effort into a menial job isn't "a grueling workout", it's mortgaging your body and health for a price you'll regret in 20 years.

I don't know what to tell you if you think that. I guess don't put in effort in a menial job? Just quit, slack off and post on HN instead?

I don't think menial work leads to "mortgaging your body". Some jobs sure, but those very physically demanding jobs pay well because the alternative would be a job that pays equally as poorly and is not physically demanding. You can always default to working at a grocer or fast food job.

Those factory jobs at Amazon that are fairly grueling pay a lot better than similar jobs in those areas w/ that skill set. People don't really work them very long either due to the demands. So you can do that for a few years, make more money and hopefully invest it in building out a more valuable skill-set or give better opportunities to your children.

Re: How to Work Hard

#238
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

No, it is. If you don't retire (at 65~) with 2+ million in the bank you did something wrong (or had a rare cataclysmic event that drains your financial resource). I have a modest salary in the Midwest and should retire with $3m+ making reasonable contributions to a 401k, and that's if I don't change anything.

Or you could be served divorce papers from your partner and lose a substantial fraction of your net-worth and future income.

Or you ( or a member of your family) could have a debilitating/rare disease and your insurance does not cover all the treatments for it.

Or you could have been fired and opened your own business and your partners fleeced you out (ask me how I know)

Or you live in a country where salaries are below 45 k /y.

And so on ...

You have a very naive, simplistic and privileged worldview so I hope for your own sake you never have to leave that cocoon.

Re: How to Work Hard

#239
post #16

Doesn't this sound shit though? If Bill Gates is so smart why did he have to work so much? Did he like coding and management more than days off? If a life of hard work is needed to get you into heaven that's fine. Or if anything less would mean you and your dependants going hungry. But once your basic needs are met then it's irrational not to start spending time on all of the other things that life has to offer. I fe…

Because he was trying to build one of the biggest/most successful companies ever? Some things are just hard regardless of how smart you are, building a mega company is one of those.

Re: How to Work Hard

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone making high 5 or low 6 figures will be a millionaire at the start retirement if they can save a modest amount from a reasonably early start, say 30 years old.

While technically correct, this doesn't square with most people's intuitive sense of what "being a millionaire" means. It's not having a solid retirement nest egg, it is being able to jet off to your yacht in St. Tropez on a private jet. I think this is largely due to inflation. A million dollars in the 50s or 60s would be around 10 million today, while at the turn of the 20th century when the term really became popu…

yeah well that's true about people's intuition but it hasn't been the case for a long time. to "jet off on a private jet" anywhere regularly probably requires a salary on the order of a million per year.
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