How to Work Hard • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Work Hard

#161

Post by ericmay » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #153

ericmay wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's common when compared to other industries, though maybe not generally common. Admittedly I have no data to back up this hunch. If I'm wrong, please correct me, but my interpretation of what the person you're replying to was trying to get at was that modest savings from a 23+ year old software engineer, to the tune of $800/month or $10,000/year (this could be 401k match and contributions) will get you pret…

inflation though...

No doubt. People usually assume 2% inflation/year since that is what the Federal Reserve targets (and the 6.7% is a little conservative) but that amount of money also continues to grow over time, so depending on your expenses you may never touch the principal at that point with a 4% withdrawal rate.

There are a lot of variables too. $800,000 with a paid off house is different than $800,000 and still renting, for example. Depends on your country of residence too, etc.

But you can get to that point by saving, using common assumptions.

Re: How to Work Hard

#162

Post by helen___keller » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

When I was an undergrad at CMU, I learned how to work hard. Really hard. After having coasted through too-easy high school, I spent all day every day at CMU either programming, doing mathematics, or thinking about one of those things (to great effect: often the trick to prove a theorem would pop into my head while showering or while taking a walk). I would fall asleep while programming in the middle of the night, dream about programming, then wake up and continue programming just where I left off.

One thing from this essay really stuck out to me:

> The most basic level of which is simply to feel you should be working without anyone telling you to. Now, when I'm not working hard, alarm bells go off.

One thing that always happened at the end of a semester is we'd have a few days after exams but before flights back home. On these days I'd typically try playing a video game (my hobby before college) and every time I would stop playing after just an hour with deep feeling of unease at the pit of my stomach. "Alarm bells" is exactly how I would describe it - a feeling at the core of my psyche that I have been wasting time and there must be something productive I should be doing or thinking about.

Years later, having tackled anxiety problems that had plagued me most of my life, I came to recognize that my relationship with hard work during my college years was not healthy and that this deep seated desire to do more work is not a positive thing, at least not for me.

I've since reformed my ambitions, instead of looking to start a company or get a PhD in mathematics, I've decided that hard work is not the love of my life and instead I should focus on my hobbies while looking for a career path that can be simultaneously fulfilling but laid back.

Re: How to Work Hard

#163

Post by Zababa » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

tpush wrote: post #71

ARandomerDude wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is right. Gender studies, for example, is a pointless degree. You certainly have a point about not being quick to judge, or overly dismissive, but there are certain things in life that are genuinely pointless, even in education.

Why would a Gender Studies degree be pointless? Given the current landscape around gender and such, having more educated people in that area seems like a very good thing.

Or maybe the people that want to justify their places are the ones creating that landscape in the first place? I work in tech, and really like tech and think it's important, but I know that I'm really biased because that's what feeds me.

Re: How to Work Hard

#164

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

SonicScrub wrote: post #147

sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

The Millionaire Next Door concepts are still as relevant as ever, albeit the specifics are a bit dated. Millionaire status is reasonably achievable for someone whose income and cost of basics allow for modest discretionary income. This is certainly the case for the majority of software developers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Over what time horizon? How do we factor in retirement needs and inflation?

The point is that the vast majority of people are not going to be financially independent by 30, or even 40.

Re: How to Work Hard

#165

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

pjfin123 wrote: post #143

sidlls wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. No, it's not. It's common for some FAANG engineers. It's not common at all for the industry as a whole. Look at all these comments doubling-down on the "7%/$10k-per-year" arithmetic, as if the only thing that affects savings rates is knowledge of this basic math. For a data driven community there sure are a lot of p…

With a $100,000 salary, $50,000 expenses, 30% tax rate, and 5% real returns you could put away $20,000 a year and have a million (2021) dollars in 26 years. Hardly easy but not out of the realm of possibility for a persistent and highly paid software developer.

Ideally the money would go into tax-advantaged accounts like 401Ks first, which would reduce the effective tax rate and thus boost savings.

Re: How to Work Hard

#166

Post by jahewson » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #47

wantsanagent wrote: post #40

"Natural ability" is a cop-out and PG should know better. It'd be fine if this came with a disclaimer, "we don't know what natural ability is and the more we learn the more complex and diverse this umbrella term becomes." But taking it at face value is fuzzy thinking. It feels like this was included to hedge his bets. The Polgar sisters(1) serve as evidence that while "natural ability" may be a thing it's even less i…

"Natural ability" is when your skills and interests happen to have a good impedance match with a problem to be solved.

That’s not what it means.

Re: How to Work Hard

#167

Post by throwaway894345 » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #44

Hard work can be good, but only if you own a substantial capital interest in the company/result. But if you can hire people to do it for you, then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living. If you are just part of the labor and not the capital, then there really isn't an incentive to work harder than necessary to keep you job or earn a measly raise. If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in…

> then you can reap the benefits and live a life worth living

I wish we could make the "inequality" point without resorting to hyperbole like this. The median American lives a life that is the envy of 99.9% percent of people who have ever walked this earth including most monarchs and emperors, and certainly >90% of people alive today.

I do agree that something needs to be done to keep inequality in check; I just happen to think that hyperbole and dishonesty create more problems than they solve.

Re: How to Work Hard

#168

Post by 6DM » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #49

kstenerud wrote: post #30

The true ah-ha moment comes when you finally realize how much bullshit this is. "Hard work" is the mantra that keeps you a slave. "Success stories" are the tasty carrots that keep you toiling away your best years enriching others in pursuit of the things you're supposed to seek in life: Power, success, status. "Life hacks" are little dopamine hits to keep your eye on the carrot. And the kicker is that those few who a…

Curious if you would elaborate on your own personal philosophy that’s an antidote to this? Is it to strive for something other than power or status? To “not work hard”? To focus on endeavors that disproportionately enrich yourself? I do think this type of mindset is perpetuated by those with highly industrious personalities (who would probably ‘work hard’ anyways).

This was my high school experience, but it was an early lesson I took to heart.

I used to work at K-Mart, one day a windy storm blew in. I was really hustling to get all the shopping carts in before they blew around the lot and damaged vehicles. I was still trying to get my other responsibilities done and noticed the patio furniture was starting to blow around too. I mean at this point I'm literally running to get to everything.

New guy, chatting up the manager. I can't remember the exact reason, but at some point on the same day the manager got upset that my stuff wasn't done. (my stuff being organizing and fronting shelves)

This guy didn't do anything. Like literally just hung out and made the manager laugh.

That's when I knew. Hard working people don't get ahead on their hard work alone. Sure, it gets recognized when you've got good leadership in charge. Honestly though, after that experience, I've seen it over and over.

Do solid work, know what you're doing and help others around you. Just don't kill yourself trying to impress your boss. The old saying goes, "If you want something done, give it to the busiest person."

You're just asking for someone to dump their load on you in some way. If you have the capacity and enjoy your work, get it done. If you don't, and there's no deadlines, why stay late?

Re: How to Work Hard

#169

Post by nickelcitymario » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

ARandomerDude wrote: post #57

nickelcitymario wrote: post #34

> I had to learn what real work was before I could wholeheartedly desire to do it. That took a while, because even in college a lot of the work is pointless; there are entire departments that are pointless. The arrogance! This is one of my pet peeves at work: When someone looks at another person's work and judges its value or difficulty. "That's easy." "That's pointless." Ugh. Everyone else's job looks easy and/or po…

The author is right. Gender studies, for example, is a pointless degree. You certainly have a point about not being quick to judge, or overly dismissive, but there are certain things in life that are genuinely pointless, even in education.

I don't agree with the premise that gender studies is pointless (and if I had to guess, you selected that one for the sake of controversy?).

That aside, let's say that a degree is "pointless" if it doesn't lead to good job prospects. By that definition, there's an awful lot of fields of study that are "pointless".

For example, I love philosophy. It was my favourite topic in school. But the only job that a philosophy degree seems to make available is that of teaching philosophy.

I think what we're seeing now is the market at work. There was, for a long time, a push to simply get a post-secondary education. It didn't matter which field. Just get a degree! Now we have a couple generations of heavily indebted students in fields that did not improve their job prospects, and they're telling the next generation: don't do it.

So I think we're going to keep seeing financial pressure on these fields until they shrivel up and go away. Capitalism at work, for better or worse.

But that's not the same as thinking these fields were pointless. I see tremendous social value in them. Having entire generations raised with a healthier and more accurate understanding of race, gender, class struggle, etc., is good for society. It's just not good at creating jobs.

So I guess my point (no pun intended) is that "pointless" is in the eye of the beholder. No one sets about wasting money pointlessly, and the things that you see no value in may be of great value to many others. You're not the arbitrator of what has value. Nor am I. But the market does a pretty damn good job.

Just because you think something is pointless doesn't make it so.

Re: How to Work Hard

#170

Post by sokoloff » Tue, Jun 29, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #160

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you tell people that if they work 12+ hours a day in their 20s that they would be millionaires or billionaires Billionaire isn’t a realistic goal, but millionaire is a common outcome for software developers who work hard through their 20s and 30s now. It doesn’t even require a FAANG job or living in a super expensive city any more, just wise job selection, a reasonable amount of financial savvy and budget adhere…

I updated to multi-millionaire. The idea was that people would have enough money to quit their job and live very comfortably. I think the network effect is highly overblown for the average person. Sure, networks can be good for the people in the top 10%, but I don't see it really helping most of us because what are the chances our average friends will be in a position to hire us to a high position. I don't see an ave…

Is the average for a developer really that low (in the US)? In the Boston-area market (now remote, but same pay scale), we're paying more than that for fresh college hires.

Get hired, contribute to your 401(k), buy a house, and do that for 15 years and in most markets I think your change in net worth over the 15 years is more likely to be >$1MM than less.