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'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

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Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#231
post #44

I'll try to strictly source my remarks and refrain from commenting on the political content of the HK demonstrations to keep this purely factual, as I think this could be a rather controversial thread; however, it's interesting how different the reception to these demonstrations is to the reception to the US Capitol riots and the BLM demonstrations of last year. Hong Kong demonstrators have stormed government buildin…

> To keep this in context, the current Hong Kong SAR government is democratically elected[6] according to the provisions of an international treaty signed by the PRC and the UK which took effect in 1997 No, this's misinformation. The HK government isn't democratically elected. The CEO of the HK government is selected by a committee appointed by the CCP. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Committee_(Hong_Kong)…

Many countries, including the US and UK, have indirect elections for high offices. Are they also non-democratic?

Personally, my answer to that question is yes, but I’m willing to apply principles equally. Again, this is beside the point of what I was asking, as I’m not trying to get into an ideological debate.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there is the Aloha ʻĀina Party that seeks Hawaiian sovereignty, Several Cascadian independence movements that seek to seceded the Cascadian bioregion from the US. There is the Second Vermont Republic. Puerto Rico has a few parties advocating for independence, as are parties that advocate for Samoan unification. I’m less familiar with the federal level, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find the dissolution of the U…

So there are. That's cool. There seems to be a selfish trend where someone with a legitimate though perhaps unpopular opinion expects to be given more consideration than others. Complains that the game is rigged since their unpopular opinion is not allowed to jump the line and be given immediate attention.

Healthcare is consistently ranked as a top 2 priority amongst Americans polled and has over 70% support. It even have majority support amongst republican voters. This is a false equivalency.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The framing is cynical, though I agree with you that stability is valuable. I'd argue the reason the framing is cynical is because the two party system wasn't intentionally crafted as some sort of 'nothing changes' power structure, but is the outcome from the current incentives of our democratic system. The two parties bit is arguably a flaw the founders tried unsuccessfully to prevent ( because it can lead to instab…

I don't believe intentions matter all that much. Certainly not more than than the outcomes. Stumbling upon a pragmatic solution while pursuing idealistic goals doesn't sanctify the solution. And introducing a solution just for pragmatic reasons witout any pretense of idealism doesn't vilify it. > But policy does change and decade over decade That's a very low bar. It happens in single party systems as well. China wen…

> "China went from communism into capitalism with single party system, without revolution."

I'm not sure Deng Xiaoping would agree with this framing, though he was eventually able to shift things after Mao. There was a lot of violence during the cultural revolution. Deng reversed a lot of this, but it was in a revolutionary context (right after the cultural revolution).

"And introducing a solution just for pragmatic reasons without any pretense of idealism doesn't vilify it."

I agree that it doesn't necessarily vilify it (pragmatism is good), but if it's done only as an illusion/lie to maintain authoritarian control by one group then that is villainous. This is also not what occurs in the USG (and the underlying suggestion that it is, is what I took issue with).

> "Stumbling upon a pragmatic solution while pursuing idealistic goals doesn't sanctify the solution."

No, but the thing I'm taking issue with is the 'pragmatic solution' being a dead locked two party system that exists only for stability. That's the cynical view I think is wrong. I think the US is a democratic system with rule of law where policy moves forward via arguing. Though recently, party risk and extremism has made this less effective and entrenched incentives make these issues hard to fix. This is a bug though and not by design. Parties form because it's an effective way to coordinate even though there are risks.

> "That's a very low bar. It happens in single party systems as well."

I'd argue that it's not as resilient in single party systems, both because unelected leaders that serve infinite terms gives some short term advantage at the increased risk of long term instability and because the amount of control used against the public leads to resentment. Wild swings in policy can cause problems, making year over year progress which culminates in big changes over decades is a stable way to improve things. Particularly if it happens in a context where new politicians are being elected all of the time and power is peacefully changing.

If you're not stress testing that system (even if you are) with peaceful changes of power, then you're unlikely to survive your first attempt. One party governments can be more efficient at doing things in the short-term, but long term they fail. Without elections the failures are violent.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not noise - the censors drop specific comms over time when there's focus. When the Pooh meme was happening if you tried sending it the receiver would never get it. Now that it has died down it's no longer a focus (though I'm still unsure if that image would be received). The same thing happens around certain events (Tiananmen Square Anniversary) where they get more extreme about the censorship. The fact that the…

I'm not sure it's censored for the reason you've stated (the mildest 'threat' part). But I take your point. The censoring regarding June every year is a very different story. I just hope I can contribute to a more meaningful discussion here as there are simply too much misunderstanding.

Yeah - I'd guess it's less 'threat' and more 'things that embarrass the party leader'.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#235
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there are. That's cool. There seems to be a selfish trend where someone with a legitimate though perhaps unpopular opinion expects to be given more consideration than others. Complains that the game is rigged since their unpopular opinion is not allowed to jump the line and be given immediate attention.

Healthcare is consistently ranked as a top 2 priority amongst Americans polled and has over 70% support. It even have majority support amongst republican voters. This is a false equivalency.

I think that is generally true- though there is great disagreement over the implementation.

Healthcare has 70% just in general? So is that public option, Medicare for All, or single payer? What does the support for these items look like when broken down?

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#236
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, complete hearsay that China is supporting the military coup. They had good relations with incumbent government due to the belt and road initiative.

>> The people of Myanmar have been sharing lots and lots of videos... > complete hearsay... Um, what? How do you go from video evidence to "complete hearsay"?

So where are these videos?

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grantham convinced London to scrap all plans for political reform on the basis that it did not "interest the British electorate". Later, when confronted by the Hong Kong public, he blamed London.[12] All major democratic reforms for Hong Kong were dropped by British Cabinet decision. In October 1952, the British Colonial Secretary Oliver Lyttelton announced that the time was "inopportune for...constitutional changes…

Those numbers in brackets look like citations.[12, 16] What are you citing?

The phrase "All major democratic reforms for Hong Kong were dropped by British Cabinet decision." does not lead to any credible source, only some mentions on a small number of websites or Reddit.

Compare the Google searches:

- "the colonial governors who ran Hong Kong repeatedly sought to introduce popular elections but abandoned those efforts in the face of pressure by Communist Party leaders in Beijing."

  [1] leads to the New York Times article, which I can follow its references.
- "All major democratic reforms for Hong Kong were dropped by British Cabinet decision."

  [2] does not lead to any credible source. In fact, some of the sites appear to be disinformation campaigns (don’t take my words, judge for yourself).
[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22the+colonial+governors+wh...

[2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22All+major+democratic+refo...

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#238

I wonder if they're still using pepes in HK.

For those out of the loop:

Hong Kong Protesters Love Pepe the Frog. No, They’re Not Alt-Right. [1]

I think the protest is going underground after the Security Law and recent crackdown. So it is harder to see symbols of protests.

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/19/world/asia/hong-kong-prot...

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#239
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, here’s a video of The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh ride in Shanghai Disneyland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=338iWj670N4

Single-purpose accounts aren't allowed on HN and nationalistic flamewar isn't welcome either. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

IMO in this particular post, I was simply providing direct evidence refuting the claim that Winnie the Pooh is banned in China and not engaging in a nationalistic flamewar.

I can point out many examples of nationalistic, flamewar-instigating posts in this thread (such as the top comment) far more deserving (again, IMO) of reprimand than my little comment.

For instance:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26570631

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26570349

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657173

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26571261

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26571461

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26570343

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2657057

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26568989

Some flagged/dead but egregiously bad comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26570411

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26569353

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26569931

Obviously you can’t comment on them all, but I feel slightly targeted for my relatively benign remarks when there are much lower hanging fruit.

Regardless, I respect your judgement and the moderation that you do here, so i’ll do my best to refrain from directly responding to propagandistic lies and disinformation.

Re: 'Do Not Split': A Hong Kong protest film [video]

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fragility of the CPC and its fear in being portrayed in any negative light knows no limits. We can only hope that will be its downfall.

Not if most of us keep claiming laziness and buy stuff that clearly say "made in China", when there are alternatives readily available either online or next to it in the aisle.

Agreed. I made a personal decision years ago, never to buy any Made in China products. There’s always better alternatives, of higher quality and also by supporting local manufacturers.
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