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Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

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Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, when I'm looking for work I turn on the looking-for-work thing on linkedin. I'll get 1 maybe 2 generic pings over the next few months for "fullstack dev" (which I'm not - I do server-side or low level software), but that's about it.

I don't want to dunk on you with really obvious suggestions like "you have a bad resume, fix it" type comments, maybe you've already had it looked over, and you're in a non-optimal location or something. Maybe ask a few specific questions on reddit somewhere like r/cscareerquestions.

I've been wracking my brain for years over this, and I'm still not any closer to understanding what the problem is.

I've had my resume looked at and tweaked over and over. I never send a cover letter without having someone else proofread and offer suggestions. I've lived and worked in many tech-hub places, including San Francisco for 6 years.

I just don't know... I think it's got to be socially related, but I have a hard time examining that aspect because I'm autistic. But I always make a concerted effort not to offend people, to make sure everyone gets their say and can contribute. People even say I'm a really nice guy, so then I'm left wondering what exactly "it" is that's tanking me...

It always happens the same way:

- I get a job and everyone is super friendly. Some inevitable technical hiccups getting set up for the first month, but no big deal.

- Everything goes swimmingly for the next 6 months to a year. People seem happy with me, performance reviews are fine, 1-on-1 with the boss is fine. I even make a point of asking if they're unhappy with anything about me, and they say "no, everything's fine".

Then one day things go bad (or maybe they've been bad and I didn't see). People start being rude to me, start shutting me out of conversations, start being extra harsh or petty in code reviews etc. In some cases they start name-calling. No higher-ups step in so I try to avoid the people doing this and not antagonize them.

Eventually my boss brings me in for the "it's not working out" talk. They can never give me a solid reason why, and often they resort to roundabout firing methods because it's technically illegal otherwise. There's never a warning, never a list of things to improve upon. I spend most of my days at a company wondering when I'll get "the call". The worst one happened on Dec 23rd.

So yeah... Probably nothing that anyone on HN could help with, because the feedback mechanism I'm subjected to is so vague. But it's frustrating nonetheless, and even today I have constant stress spikes whenever my boss asks to talk to me for a minute about something, wondering if this is it.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never had an old colleague contact me. Is that a thing? Forgive me, but I'm not even sure what I should be asking these people... "Why haven't you contacted me" sounds too abrasive...

Maybe 10% of my coworkers transitioned from work acquaintance ("Hi Jim") into good work acquaintance ("hey man, grab lunch?") into friend ("hey man, want to grab dinner/beers later?") into good friend ("hey man, want to go on an out-of-country trip?"). If nobody is making the jump into good work acquaintance, where you enjoy hanging out casually without needing an explicit work reason, something is amiss. I don't try…

> You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends.

Yes! I've done exactly this, and the result is always the same: They can't believe that I'm having problems in this area. "I can't understand how ANYONE could dislike you!" is what my dad said.

Fuck... now this is making me sad.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have continued to publish and never have I been instructed to make the papers be open access. No one is enforcing that mandate. The research I've been a part of is wholly funded by the taxpayer and papers that I published after the mandate continue to not be freely available.

Umm...not sure what to tell you about that, other than you’re potentially out of compliance with the terms you and your institution agreed to. I think there is a 6-12 month “exclusivity” period still, and some journals handle that automatically if you acknowledge federal funding. For example, Current Biology moved our stuff out from behind the paywall automatically on its publication anniversary. - Here’s the NIH pol…

Regarding the GP and cost. Open access often incurs additional costs! It's absolutely madness that such a model of exists at all.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe 10% of my coworkers transitioned from work acquaintance ("Hi Jim") into good work acquaintance ("hey man, grab lunch?") into friend ("hey man, want to grab dinner/beers later?") into good friend ("hey man, want to go on an out-of-country trip?"). If nobody is making the jump into good work acquaintance, where you enjoy hanging out casually without needing an explicit work reason, something is amiss. I don't try…

> You can't ask people who aren't close directly why they aren't close, but maybe family members / non-work friends. Yes! I've done exactly this, and the result is always the same: They can't believe that I'm having problems in this area. "I can't understand how ANYONE could dislike you!" is what my dad said. Fuck... now this is making me sad.

Ah, don't get sad -- you seem aware enough to recognize the problem. Just a few thoughts:

* These connections are easier when you're in your 20s, single, have time to kill. The company culture may encourage/discourage this too.

* If you're a developer, you may be among a less-extroverted cohort, and have to make efforts to reach out vs. being reached-out-to.

* These are the hard-to-teach-explicitly items, but is every interaction with coworkers purely about the project? Hobbies, shared interests, movies they've seen, games they play, trips they've done/are going to do, etc.? With a (non-work) shared interest it's hard not to have casual conversations that build a work repoire over time.

* There are intangible social signals about willingness to connect (person is overly polite/formal/rigid, facial expressions/body language, warmth of tone and language, etc.). Basically when you sit down next to someone on an airplane, you can tell if they want to chat without having to ask them. Being actively disliked is rarely the issue. You don't dislike the cashier at the grocery store, but the relationship is purely transactional, we can be friendly but let's just get this over with. For some reason, your coworkers may see things this way.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#235
post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

The grant system completely compromises most faculty'$ ability to do anything with their decades of training besides sell themselves. Especially young faculty during their most productive years. The only way to turn this around is to change the way we give credit for scientific achievements, and stop rewarding "I wrote the grant" With authorships. (Im ex faculty)

> The only way to turn this around is to change the way we give credit for scientific achievements, and stop rewarding "I wrote the grant" With authorships. (Im ex faculty)

I totally agree with your diagnosis of the problem, but I don't see how your proposed solution would solve anything.

First of all, grants are needed to do any meaningful research and advance one's careers in most fields, authorship or no authorship. So the incentive to spend a disproportionate amount of time selling oneself would still be there.

Second, as you yourself imply, the reasons why young faculty don't take a more active role in research are (mostly) not voluntary, it's because they are forced into the grant treadmill. I don't see why they deserve punishment (in the form of fewer authorships) on top of that. They're already overworked getting the grants and you want them to spend more hours in the lab to get authorships in addition?

Third, how do you even police authorships? Especially when a person has a position of power due to having the funding with which other people in the lab are hired. There are already guidelines from scientific societies that in theory don't allow people who just obtained the funding to claim authorship, but people do it anyway. Even if someone complained, they can claim that they actually contributed (e.g. by going through the paper, checking and polishing for correctness) and it's very hard to disprove.

I think the solution has to be to the tune of (1) funding purely based on past CV, not projects (spare us all the effort of convincing reviewers that what we're going to do is the bee's knees, and drawing fictional Gantt charts when in research it's practically impossible to predict anything. If we have produced relevant results in the past, we will probably keep producing them); (2) flatter funding (reward better CVs with better funding, but keep decent enough funding for everyone to keep feedback loops at bay and not throw people that got unlucky with experiments under the bus); and (3) individual funding for everyone instead of a large chunk of funding that goes to the head of the lab.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#236

Is it counterproductive that we expect researchers to work in universities and become professors? It seems like there should be more outlets for the calling. Our universities are proving to be a bottleneck. I see how there is an often-natural relationship between cultivating knowledge and disseminating it to students. However, we need and have more prospective researchers than universities are willing or able to supp…

That's been a question I have no answer to: What do we do with all these smart people? Currently most just go inside hierarchical workplaces where they have to learn to play office politics and carry out meaningless job functions in exchange for financial security. We don't have a Bell labs anymore, science is getting more expensive and most of the venture capital money goes to software rather than to the more capita…

> We don't have a Bell labs anymore

Bell Labs was 100% funded by the rents of a government-enforced monopoly.

Ma Bell spent its corporate lifetime fighting to prevent things like the Internet from happening. Bell Labs' job was to patent things like the answering machine so AT&T could prevent them from existing for as long as possible.

I, for one, am very very glad that Bell Labs no longer exists.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#237
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biomedical engineer with a 2.977GPA. Lots of extra curriculars, volunteered in labs, 160 credit hours of mostly STEM classes, lots of grad-level courses, relevant work experience, but GPA was 0.023 too low to pass the automated filters and I didn't get into any of the grad programs I applied for. I ended up doing fine in software development though. Also, the Wright Brothers didn't need a research lab to invent fligh…

Not for you obviously, but in case someone else that is still in the situation of applying for grad school is reading this. Have you checked outside the US? In the EU there are plenty of universities that offer grad programs without the crazy access requirements of US universities. Tuition is free or at a token price in many countries. And it's reasonably easy to get a paid PhD studentship where you get paid a real s…

Which institutes would you recommend for Engineering research?

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#238
post #32
post #29

I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.

Me too; I had my first NIH R01 turned down without a score and left for industry (which has allowed me to do more scientific work than academia ever did). I only realized later that most PIs don't get their first NIH R01 approved until ~10 years older than I was at the time. What's ridiculous is the amounts of these basic grants that beginning scientists are trying to get are tiny- basically 1 person-year salary.

I stuck it out in academia for (if I total it up completely), 15 years, before getting out and into industry. My experience matches yours--there's just so much interesting scientific work out there, and while some might argue that it's constrained due to the business priorities, the same applies to working in an academic group with specific priorities. Just like choosing a research group in academia, choose a company with priorities and interests which align with yours.

On the face of it, it's also a less risky choice. In academia, you're always fighting over scraps of funding, and you're always just one grant application away from a career failure. Just one rejected publication or failed experiment can end you if it causes you to fail to get more funding. While I wasn't a PI, I was made redundant after our group lost some of its funding, and I put some of that down to a paper rejected on utterly ridiculous grounds by a competitor lab. Petty academic politics. In industry, it seems that companies are much better at managing and mitigating risk. Projects are initiated with the expectation that they will have a high chance of failure, but that useful knowledge will be gained. Project managers will give projects a certain amount of runway and then make a go/no-go decision for continuation at defined points. You might run several projects in parallel and know that some will work out and some won't. Being on a "failed" project isn't a career-limiting move in that situation--you'll try your best doing some very cutting-edge stuff and your efforts will still be valued. Rather than being fired, you'll move onto another project and continue doing interesting stuff. It's much less stressful even though I likely work harder! And if the company stops being interesting, there are plenty of others to go to.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#239
post #11

> universities ... expect faculty in the medical schools to pay their own way with either clinical work or external research funding. This puts tremendous financial pressure on eager young medical researchers, sometimes leading them not to the projects that are most needed or that they are most passionate about, but to the projects that will get them funding. Sometimes it feels as if the current system we have in the…

Have higher standards and fund less science? If you have a million dollars to spend, you'll be careful and pay attention; if you have a billion, you'll be looking at crude aggregate metrics.

In my experience, this doesn't work.

In my country the R&D budget is quite small in the first place, and there were huge cuts during the 2008 crisis.

The result of the cuts was mainly that the mafias, old researchers with political influence, and people who are experts in gaming the system got to keep their funding. In general, newcomers, young researchers, and genuinely good researchers who aren't that good at gaming the system suffered the most.

No, the truth is that these problems are caused precisely by the insane levels of competitiveness for funding - and solutions must reduce that level of competitiveness for funding, not increase it.

Re: Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

#240
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not for you obviously, but in case someone else that is still in the situation of applying for grad school is reading this. Have you checked outside the US? In the EU there are plenty of universities that offer grad programs without the crazy access requirements of US universities. Tuition is free or at a token price in many countries. And it's reasonably easy to get a paid PhD studentship where you get paid a real s…

Which institutes would you recommend for Engineering research?

I think your question is too general. For example, there may be institutions that have e.g. a great civil engineering lab while being mediocre at electrical engineering. And the same can be true of subfields of each engineering discipline (for example, I'm in CS, and it's common to see institutions that have a powerful group in one specific area of CS - say computer vision, robotics, NLP, theoretical CS - and aren't anything special in others).

I think you should look at what specific research you want to do and then check what labs are publishing interesting papers on that specific thing.

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