Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#231

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:10 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #147

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Exactly correct. I tried to explain this to a public official from an east cost town who was flying back from the Bay Area trying to "learn the secrets" of creating an innovation hub. When I explained this situation (non-competes are illegal, stuff you do at home is yours) to him he literally said "That's crazy! Why would anyone hire anyone if they knew they could walk out the door to a competitor, or even to start a…

IMHO there is more to SV than just that. Case in point, in Germany non-competes are basically non-enforceable, patentble inventions have to be offered to your current employer so. But only if they are directly linked to your current job, not which equipment yu are using. And if it is not directly linked to your current job, it's all yours.

And still, we don't have anything near to SV over here.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#232

Post by tonyedgecombe » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:12 AM UTC

boc wrote: post #130

niihau_island wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's because Silicon Valley occurred first, and then oppressed most of Europe's "native" companies? It seems that there are some massive sources of wealth for tech companies, such as search, social networks, and e-commerce companies. In Europe, these have all been supplanted by Google, Facebook, and Amazon respectively. In China, on the other hand, these companies were free to grow and establish their own nexus…

Don't mistake government-sponsored protectionism and corporate espionage for innovation. I don't think Europe can copy China's playbook without also banning all American tech from their economy.

I expect you will see barriers come up over time that make it more difficult for American tech companies in Europe. It makes no sense for the EU to outsource such a valuable part of the economy.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#233

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:15 AM UTC

donor20 wrote: post #170

toomanybeersies wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to describe "low labour mobility" is "high job stability". It's easy to sit in an ivory tower on a $200k+ silicon valley salary, with a healthy job market if you get the sack, and bemoan the fact that workers have rights and can't be fired because their employer feels like it.

Actually, FANG job stability is surprisingly high - the big corps have gobs of money and are big - so it takes a lot to actually push you fully out the door sometimes. Entry level wages are perhaps $190K (right out of college / entry level) at google and others. There is definitely a job for you at $60K

Unless one is somehow inconvenient for the company e.g. involved in employee organization or tweeted some wrongthink. Then they get thrown out faster than they can say "is this legal?".

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#234

Post by TheMagicHorsey » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:15 AM UTC

I love how some CEOs think that their engineers are like cobbs of corn that they can sell in the market. Motherfuckers ... these are human beings. They aren't your "produce". If you don't make a valuable business, you aren't owed money when your employees leave for better jobs.

Fuckin Silicon Valley "business" types make me sick.

I had a 1 on 1 with a business school type who said, "anyone can code, but it takes a special person to come up with a new idea."

I smiled over the zoom call, but in my head I was thinking ... good luck finding engineers.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#235

Post by filmgirlcw » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:16 AM UTC

All I can think reading that judgment is that I would never in a million years want to work for or with the CEO of Hooked on anything.

As others have noted, California’s strong labor laws, especially around non-competes, are part of why there is such a concentration of talent there as opposed to other states, let along other countries. Talent wants the freedom to move around.

Part of the reason why the no-poach agreements between Apple and Adobe and others was so disgusting was because that was collusion by multi-billion dollar companies to prevent employee mobility. And the companies were sanctioned heavily for this as a result.

Because in other states, something as egregious as a company trying to sell off its employees (after rejecting an acquihire agreement), and then suing one of the employees who decided to jump off the sinking ship and join a company that actually wanted to compensate him and where he might actually have a future, might be successful.

Take the recent Amazon situation here in Seattle [1] where the company attempted to enforce a non-compete on an employee it wasn’t going to promote and whose hiring-manager assured that the non-compete was “boiler plate” and that the company would not exercise. When the employee’s boss (that same hiring manager), left for a job at Oracle, and wasn’t sued, he took that as a sign he could seek outside employment. The employee took a job at Google, took steps to make sure he wouldn’t be infringing on any sensitive information, and HR congratulated him. Then Amazon sued him and got an injunction on letting him work on PowerPoints at his new job. This was ultimately settled but the fact that Amazon did this — and did this not to an engineer but a marketing professional — should worry any Amazon employee in the state of Washington. (The more senior employee who took a job at Oracle was based in California).

Washington State’s non-compete laws are good for low-level employees, but the salary cap of $100,000 makes it worthless for virtually any person employed by a tech company (or a place like Boeing), though the existence of those kinds of non-competes varies from company to company.

[1]: https://www.geekwire.com/2020/amazon-settles-lawsuit-former-...

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#236

Post by jlokier » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:16 AM UTC

jariel wrote: post #22

centimeter wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IP rules favour the little guy This is one of the most absurd and backwards claims I've seen on this site. Large companies are members of patent pools that prevent them from being sued by other members, whereas small companies without a large IP portfolio can't do anything without inadvertently violating someone's patent.

You're raising a secondary IP issue to a concern much larger than it actually is, causing you to misinterpret the situation. IP is one of the very few areas wherein smaller companies can have any hope of leverage over larger ones. That small companies are blocked from some other patents is an issue, but a lesser one - and it applies to big and small alike. "whereas small companies without a large IP portfolio can't d…

> IP is one of the very few areas wherein smaller companies can have any hope of leverage over larger ones.

Leverage over another isn't the only way to compete.

If there was no IP, smaller companies would have alternatives such as blatantly copying the larger companies' better product features, while being nimbler to innovate with those ideas, and to blend features from different companies into a new product.

Not every small company would be good at that. But some would. Some smaller companies would have more ability to out-innovate incumbents.

Of course that already happens, but it could happen more freely without IP.

The smaller companies would still have the problem of being noticed, selling their products, and getting investor interest (which I'm told IP helps with), but those problems aren't new.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#237

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:17 AM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #123

donor20 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labor mobility is really low in Europe. In france you can be tied up in litigation (tribunel through appeals) for 10 years easily on an employment termination (my info is from 2016 time frame so may be dated). There is no such thing as at-will employment. Also, noncompete's are weird. If someone is receiving full pay on gardening leave they can work for someone else. If you instead have them work till end of notice p…

Another way to describe "low labour mobility" is "high job stability". It's easy to sit in an ivory tower on a $200k+ silicon valley salary, with a healthy job market if you get the sack, and bemoan the fact that workers have rights and can't be fired because their employer feels like it.

Can't believe someone's praising the US job market during the pandemic.

Although it must be said that the FAANG & co employees are insulated from the effects of it and maybe unaware of the drama unfolding right now.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#238

Post by jlokier » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

0xfaded wrote: post #224

jlokier wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US you can pivot your startup if something isn't working, roll off 20% of your staff and you don't have to talk to a govt tribunal or go through appeals. You can do this in the UK too, without a tribunal or appeals. What you've described is covered by "redundancy", and it's completely fine legally to make people redundant, in large numbers or small numbers.

But what's the notice period? 3-6 months may be enough to kill a pivoting company when otherwise IP and team could be packaged up and sold off. One of the things people seem complain about on HN is that founders of failed companies in SV seem to make off quite well. In fact I believe this mentality helped me take the leap with my startup. The only problem is that I moved to Europe to do it, and the prospects for fail…

When I was last made redundant, in the UK, the notice period was 1 month and there was no redundancy payment.

They let me go just before 2 years of employment, when a redundancy payout would have started. I don't think there would have been a longer notice period after 2 years, just a payout.

It was legitimate redundancy because they let go of a number of people at the same time. So it wasn't personally targeted, though of course there was an element of deciding who to let go of.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#239

Post by lordnacho » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:22 AM UTC

avereveard wrote: post #190

travisjungroth wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminds me of this tweet: https://mobile.twitter.com/zackkanter/status/130493861651941... The cognitive dissonance humans are capable of is amazing. To actually say “We would never allow that in our town.” in the pejorative while flying back from a trip specifically meant to learn how to be like another town . If you’re not going to act on an author’s central point, don’t try to do any of the other parts…

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

What about other labour laws? Isn't it hard to fire people in Italy, whereas CA has at-will? My friend whose father ran a well known cultural institution there also says organised crime is a problem, effectively an extra tax. Basically he was told he'd have to "hire" certain people, or else...

On top of other issues there's the fact that once SV is established somewhere, it turns into a magnet for all the new startups.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#240

Post by chmod600 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:23 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #2

"That evidence does suggest the engineers drew on knowledge and skills they gained from Hooked to develop a product for their new employer––but California’s policy favoring free mobility for employees specifically allows that. (See Whyte v. Schlage Lock Co. (2002) 101Cal.App.4th 1443, 1464 [rejecting the “inevitable disclosure” doctrine, under which a claim for trade secret misappropriation is stated if an employee’s…

Really naive question:

I can see why an individual company would include non-compete clauses if legally allowed to. But who actually benefits from non-compete clauses being allowed? Aren't companies hurt more with hiring difficulties and unmotivated employees sticking around than whatever benefit they get avoiding raises?

Are there really a bunch of managers thinking "I want an engineering team that is stuck here and just plods along fixing one bug a week".