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How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

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Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#231

There's only one way out and ( to my opinion) it's redirecting resources to support "Made in India 2025"

Indian manufacturing is notoriously bad for the same reasons. So many Indian companies will backstab foreigners. They make fun of their gullibility, “firangis” and there is so much local callousness in India against foreigners.

The problem is coming up with a solution.

India > China and also has a billion civilians.

They are nowhere near that abusive as China. And are more western minded.

What's your best workable solution then?

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#233
post #114
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People who create need to be able to benefit from that creation. I agree, its just the strategy can be changed to not rely on IP.

Feel free to suggest one. Even things like Patreon likely would not work without copyright, as people would just steal the work and republish it on another medium. Open source business models couldn't work without copyright, and there is a minor rebellion underway in OSS against highly permissive licenses due to rampant corporate exploitation (e.g. "SaaSification" and rebranding and commercialization that robs the au…

> Open source business models couldn't work without copyright, and there is a minor rebellion underway in OSS against highly permissive licenses due to rampant corporate exploitation (e.g. "SaaSification" and rebranding and commercialization that robs the authors of even credit).

Here is a counter example. Up until a few decades ago, standards organisations like the ISO carefully guarded their standards with copyright law, and funded themselves off the proceeds of selling them. I'm sure they shared you're "standard organisations could not exist with the proceeds" outlook, right up until the IETF came along with there completely free RFC's, and won the networking standards war. One of the reasons ISO lost is it turns out a standard that can be read by everyone is implemented a lot more, and that in turn makes it worth more, which amazingly is actually recognised so people fund the development of more of those standards even though they know their hard work will be given away for free. The W3 works exactly that way, yet is funded by hard nosed corporates.

In some cases, the value of letting every one use the thing you spent millions on developing simply outweighs the cost of charging for it. Today's classic example is AV1, the video Codec. It's competitor, MPEG was does rely on copyright to fund it's development. The initially hidden cost of doing it that way, was if you can force everyone to pay a little bit, why not a little bit more, and perhaps a fair bit more on top of that. It took 20 years or something, but is exactly how it has panned out. And surprise, surprise, a few hard headed capitalist companies (like Microsoft / Facebook and Google) got the shits with this and funded the development of AV1, and gave it away for free.

Yes, the Patreon distribution model could a counter example. But understand that is an attribute of that particular method of distribution. If we removed copyright we may well lose that Patreon, it's unlikely we would lose what is being distributed by it. Music made it's way around the world long before copyright came along, the fashion design industry does perfectly well without copyright to this day.

In fact music is the most glaring example. Music distribution was heavily dependent on copyright for most of my life. Now, that is gone. Almost any song can be downloaded legally for free, and if not trivially pirated for free. The methods of distribution dependent on copyright right has indeed succommed to the petty avarice of humanity as you put it, the avarice being piracy in this case. But notice while that method of distribution has died, music lives on, and methods of distribution that are so cheap piracy isn't worth it risen to replace the old methods.

That's not to say copyright doesn't have it's virtues, but it very doubtful the world would stop if it died tomorrow.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We got cheap Chinese plastic trinkets. No, what we got was a new robber baron class of ultra-rich billionaires the likes of which haven't been seen since the federal government had to break up Standard Oil, etc... Which has led to extreme wealth inequality and a complete lack of access to _our fucking politics_ for the vast majority of Americans.

We can get more than one thing. I mean, sure, you didn't write anything wrong, but how is that an argument against "We got cheap Chinese plastic trinkets?" How is this even connected to the flow of the conversation? Do you respond this way to everyhing? I can just imagine your household. [Kids running in]: We got a pizza party at school! [Parent]: No, what we got was a new robber baron class of ultra-rich billionaire…

[deleted]

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We sell the training for those skills to anyone willing to pay as part of a huge education industry. You can just buy the textbooks on amazon or get many of them along with any other materials for free. Education is necessary but not sufficiency, because the manufacturing secrets are sometimes intentionally secret, and sometimes simply the result of a process that isn't reproducible. If you want a programming analo…

Secrets now? How did anyone ever develop in the first place if secrets were a dead end? Anyway, even if you saddle them with a presumption of stupidity, they can still do the stuff that isn't secret. You can make money on commodities and low quality products in a developing country with low costs. Whereas people in developed countries need to chase after the bleeding edge because they can't survive without the higher…

> You can make money on commodities and low quality products in a developing country with low costs.

The factory owner can make a lot of money, but without advancing technology there is no way to raise the standard of living. The PRC's hold on power is absolutely predicated on raising the standard of living.

> Why are you discounting very small countries exactly?

At least in Singapore's case, being a strategically located trade intermediary stopped a lot. But that only works when huge fraction of ones country is so strategically located; this is impossible with a country of decent size.

> No one would take your deal because the government is the problem holding countries back in the first place.

Saying it's (always?) (usually?) the governments fault is capitalist propaganda. Tell that to Prussia, Meiji Japan, or numerous other countries with top down approach that worked. Raising the standard of living imposes demands on all sectors of society. Indeed, it would seem the most useful thing is a cultural memory of development. This possibly explains why Japan and West Germany post war could use that US money so effectively, whereas say, Italy's postwar miracle sputtered out sooner.

My deal is a good one because it's saying "get yourself going as an exporter, but we will provide you with what you need to keep advance your economy and standard of living to the point that poorer countries undercut your exports but domestic demand makes up for it". Making that last step is crucial, as we need educated societies with leisure time to secure budding democracy.

(The US is failing because both we are uneducated and overworked. There is no enough energy left over for the average person to help maintain their corner of the commons.)

> China is an ancient civilization, not some new child that was just born and needs to grow up yet.

I didn't say otherwise? Yes, my plan is patronizing, but international relations from the Hegemon usually are! (I don't know how to solve that problem.)

I don't think it's relevant to my argument, but FWIW Chinese culture is much more divorced from the past than say India's. Presumably this is due to decades of propaganda, and major disruption both due to politics (Cultural Revolution) and the huge economic changes (tons people living far away from and in very different ways than their ancestors).

> Things that work in silicon valley right now also work everywhere else in the world. It is not magic ground.

Well, I'm suspicious how much SV is "working", and not just something that is a) first mover benefit b) flushed with quantitative easing money when EU didn't do that c) The actual big companies survive off rent seaking.

But let's just ignore all that and say SV is a smashing success.

SV succeeds because it is in America, and hierarchy of needs / standard of development -wise benefits and relies on an already technologically advanced society. Asking why SV occurred in America is like asking why factories came to prominence in Britain during the empire: it was historically inevitable.

If you are nation of subsistence farmers, developing some apps is not going to solve your problems.

A parting example: When people gush about Africa skipping land lines and going straight to cellphones, they should realize this isn't all good. Being able to bury wires and pipes is key signal of internal stability, cooperation, and a technology development that will raise the standard of living, and ability to consume, for all.

> And I'm no fan of IP, but the system using it is clearly able to work here.

IP only work alright when all parties have some. That's fine amongst already-developed countries. You can be sure if some Bangladeshi company steal's Huawei stuff China will throw a fit too.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#236
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feel free to suggest one. Even things like Patreon likely would not work without copyright, as people would just steal the work and republish it on another medium. Open source business models couldn't work without copyright, and there is a minor rebellion underway in OSS against highly permissive licenses due to rampant corporate exploitation (e.g. "SaaSification" and rebranding and commercialization that robs the au…

> Open source business models couldn't work without copyright, and there is a minor rebellion underway in OSS against highly permissive licenses due to rampant corporate exploitation (e.g. "SaaSification" and rebranding and commercialization that robs the authors of even credit). Here is a counter example. Up until a few decades ago, standards organisations like the ISO carefully guarded their standards with copyrigh…

Excluding really obvious things like ethnic cleansing or aggressive war, it's hard to find any policy or practice in the realm of politics that is all good, all bad, perfectly effective, etc. You can almost always find counterexamples or special cases.

I think my overall point is that IP law today is one of the only things that balances the power of pure financial and physical capital. Without IP law, whoever has the easiest access to the most cash wins, period. They can take anything they want and put as much marketing muscle as they want behind it. If the original creators don't have access to as much capital, they lose.

I think it's more true today than it was in the past since digital communication amplifies all these winner-take-all effects.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#237
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's the point, google can still have make money despite samsung copying by using different strategy.

But they don't make money from the phones. Thats not the point thats the cautionary tale. Google literally makes money only on its proprietary search and ad business. Then only because of that can waste money on open source technology that can make no money because its open source.

>But they don't make money from the phones.

Its not all bad, they don't and shouldn't limit themselves by relying on making money on one particular method anyway.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#238
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's put it this way, if American companies had their way, china would still be low-education hoard of manual labors with no advanced industry. Obvious no country wants to end up in this situation. Let's promote actually good things like free speech, privacy, etc., and not draconian IP policies that just allow the same rent seeking giant corporations everywhere to fuck us all over everywhere. If we tie everything to…

Why would companies want "low-education hoard of manual labors with no advanced industry"? There would be no way they could buy American products.

Because they can sell them to American consumers at high margin.

Companies have been neglecting the demand side for ages now. Increasing American household debt bought them some time, but isn't a very sustainable resource.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#239
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one has yet, but what's the problem with it? America stole Britain's intellectual property for a leg up a century or two ago, now a different country is doing it to them. It's just the normal cycle, and America have long had a lot of artificial legal protections in place to try and stop it and limit the rest of the world's prosperity. The harsh copyright laws and IP agreements they've bullied the rest of the world…

Were you trying to be ironic? You have presented exactly the problem OP is complaining about...

I'm explicitly saying it's not a problem as he claims and should be discussed, and deliberately gave the reasons why it's an interesting discussion.

That's not irony.

Not interested in that discussion? You can collapse the thread using the [-] button.

Re: How Chinese Officials Hijacked My Company

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We got cheap Chinese plastic trinkets. No, what we got was a new robber baron class of ultra-rich billionaires the likes of which haven't been seen since the federal government had to break up Standard Oil, etc... Which has led to extreme wealth inequality and a complete lack of access to _our fucking politics_ for the vast majority of Americans.

We can get more than one thing. I mean, sure, you didn't write anything wrong, but how is that an argument against "We got cheap Chinese plastic trinkets?" How is this even connected to the flow of the conversation? Do you respond this way to everyhing? I can just imagine your household. [Kids running in]: We got a pizza party at school! [Parent]: No, what we got was a new robber baron class of ultra-rich billionaire…

> how is that an argument against "We got cheap Chinese plastic trinkets?"

It's not, you just read it that way.

> How is this even connected to the flow of the conversation?

One thing (outsourcing our manufacturing -> getting cheap Chinese shit in return) has clearly led to the other (the profits not trickling down through the economy -> our political parties becoming influence peddlers).

For some bizarre reason you seem really offended by what I wrote. I think that your comment says more about you than what you think it says about me. Have a good one.

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