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Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

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Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#231

Post by lenkite »

acdha wrote: post #205
peteretep wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan and Hong Kong couldn’t be more different though. Hong Kong legislature (heavily influenced by China) passed this law (edit: this turns out not to be true). Hong Kong is already part of China. You don’t have 200km of water to cross against a country that’s prepared for just that. There’s no TSMC. If it’s a dry run for Taiwan, it’s a really shitty one.

Taiwan is much harder, but I was thinking more about precedent: if there is not much international blowback, that’s going to tell them that there won’t be major consequences if they try to ratchet Taiwan into their orbit. The U.S. provided a big shield to Taiwan for years but China has built up a lot and Trump has been ceding power as quickly as he can. It’s not clear to me that the other countries in the region or t…

"US provided big shield to Taiwan...trump has been ceding power as quickly as he can". This is utterly false. Trump has further strengthened ties with Taiwan compared to the previous administrations.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/trump-quietly-signs-legislat...

He was also the first US president to speak with a Republic-of-China president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Tsai_call

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#233

Post by entropea »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #225
entropea wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

You seem to be trying really hard to steer the conversation away from China. Yes, the US has done plenty of things that are wrong. We talk about them frequently, including here on HN. But this conversation is about China oppressing the people of Hong Kong. Do you mind letting us discuss that, without distracting us with "But the US!!!!!" all over the place?

Thats thought ending. There isn't even a downside, you learn history.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#234

Post by Waterfall »

rurounijones wrote: post #209
Waterfall wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fact that is hated by many people for some reason. There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still and the homogeneous society has social harmony, with none of the ills of multiculturalism. It's a trade-off for immigration boosting economies in the short term they don't think is worth it.

> There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still I don't know where you are getting your information that the population of Japan is still growing. Japan's population is already declining. http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf "Statistical Handbook of Japan" Table 2.2 https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ ( https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources ) https://www.w…

https://japan-forward.com/mythbusters-foreign-reporting-on-t...

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#235

Post by Waterfall »

trianglem wrote: post #195
Waterfall wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fact that is hated by many people for some reason. There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still and the homogeneous society has social harmony, with none of the ills of multiculturalism. It's a trade-off for immigration boosting economies in the short term they don't think is worth it.

None of the benefits of multiculturalism either.

What do you define as the benefits?

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#236

Post by stale2002 »

bmitc wrote: post #152
stale2002 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This conversation is about Hong Kong. Not sure why you are trying to deflect from the things that are going on there.

The grandparent comment extended the conversation to all of China's actions. I think it's relevant to discuss the horrors the U.S. has enacted upon the world, if only for a practical reason. That reason is that to understand how to solve problems elsewhere, you first need to understand how to solve the same type of problems in your neck of the woods. The U.S. spent the latter half of the 20th century and has continue…

> That reason is that to understand how to solve problems elsewhere, you first need to understand how to solve the same type of problems in your neck of the woods.

No, not really. It is perfectly possible to discuss many different issues without having to think of an answer for numerous X, Y, or Z issues that someone else brings up in order to distract you from the point.

The issue is that whenever people do this, they almost always aren't interested in solving the issue. Instead they are looking to dismiss the problem that you brought up, by using whataboutism.

This is the most common way for someone to try and get you to stop caring about an issue. There will always be an excuse that someone can throw at you, so that they can dismiss the problem that you brought up.

> This is very harmful.

The harmful thing is instead the people who are trying to prevent the problems from being solved, by distracting people from the things that they bring up.

> How can the U.S. and its people in good conscience decry other countries' actions

If bad things are happening, I want those bad thing to stop. And I am never going to accept someone pointing to a different bad thing, in order to defend against some other bad thing from happening.

Less bad things should be the goal. And this strategy of whataboutism just distracts from that.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#237

Post by trianglem »

Waterfall wrote: post #235
trianglem wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the benefits of multiculturalism either.

What do you define as the benefits?

Living with and being able to interact with different cultures? That’s one of the main reasons I love the USA.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#239

Post by trianglem »

eloff wrote: post #210
trianglem wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you do. The paradigm has changed and now you must. In fact it’s abhorrent to have a homogenous population.

Immigration is a must if you don't have a high enough birthrate to sustain economic growth - because we don't know how to manage a declining economy - and why would you accept that when you have the tool of immigration? Not because there is any fundamental need for a racially or culturally diverse population. Those things seem like they would be beneficial in my opinion, but not required.

I think we are getting to a point in the world where being able to deal with different cultures could start to be seen as a requirement, similar to knowing English in a global world.

I feel like Indians already benefit from this which is why they seem to be making very effective managers.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#240

Post by bmitc »

stale2002 wrote: post #236
bmitc wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The grandparent comment extended the conversation to all of China's actions. I think it's relevant to discuss the horrors the U.S. has enacted upon the world, if only for a practical reason. That reason is that to understand how to solve problems elsewhere, you first need to understand how to solve the same type of problems in your neck of the woods. The U.S. spent the latter half of the 20th century and has continue…

> That reason is that to understand how to solve problems elsewhere, you first need to understand how to solve the same type of problems in your neck of the woods. No, not really. It is perfectly possible to discuss many different issues without having to think of an answer for numerous X, Y, or Z issues that someone else brings up in order to distract you from the point. The issue is that whenever people do this, th…

I think you're throwing out whataboutism in a sort of ironic way. It would maybe (see below) be whataboutism if I was Chinese. I'm a U.S. citizen. I am not deflecting criticism against myself, the U.S., or China. I'm not deflecting any criticism at all, so nothing I said is whataboutism. I am simply asking people to think about and consider the problems and practical ways of understanding how to solve them.

You cannot simply dismiss hypocrisy as whataboutism. Apparently you and everyone else throwing around this term would dismiss the common phrase of "look inward first" as whataboutism.

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