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Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

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Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#201

Post by bmn__ »

Renaud wrote: post #117
Rapzid wrote: post #13

The Sino-British Joint Declaration was a mistake. What did they think would happen? If not now then what about in 2047?! Were they hoping that was enough time to warm the new generations to the idea of giving up their rights? There is no fixing this, but I appreciate the effort by the British. Many will not want to leave, understandably. But the threat of draining HK is an interesting sort of pressure to put on China…

Most people believe there was no choice. Most of the territory was on a lease that was expiring and would have legally returned to China in 1997, splitting the city in two. What the Brits should have done was to push reforms for democratic governance before they left. They could have allowed a fully democratic local government that would have survived the handover and been enshrined in the Basic Law. Instead, all pro…

> What the Brits should have done was to push reforms for democratic governance before they left.

> the British had no interest in having any type of self-governance

That is false. In the 1960s, the UK did want to introduce democratic reforms.

> China didn't like this idea of introducing democratic reforms in HK

That is the understatement of the year. The correct historic account is that the CCP threatened use of military force, so the UK reacted expediently by backing off.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#202

Post by mam2 »

easytiger wrote: post #186
supernova87a wrote: post #142

Not to make light of the offer (and I personally know people who may be affected), but why would someone from HK really want to move to the UK? Cold weather, mediocre food, expensive prices, expensive housing, and an economy and system on the verge of entering a highly destabilized period. That's an attractive offer?

> cold weather South of England, particularly London gets pretty low rainfall and decent weather temperatures > Mediocre food You don't know what you are talking about! > expensive prices Compared to what? > and an economy and system on the verge of entering a highly destabilized period. Yea HK definitely won't experience any of that

You are delusional

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#203

Post by fiblye »

alasdair_ wrote: post #183
fiblye wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China would inevitably claim that it's part of China since it was granted to Hong Kongers exclusively, and Hong Kong is part of China. It'd be like Crimea all over again, except China could have a legal argument that it's theirs instead of just claiming soldiers are vacationing there.

>It'd be like Crimea all over again I don't see China invading the west coast of the USA without a fight. A really big fight. And for what?

Give Hong Kongers a piece of land and they wouldn’t even claim it’s an invasion. It’d be a piece of land given exclusively to people from China. In what world would China say that it isn’t theirs? They’ve claimed land with far shakier backing. Literally all they’d need to do is bus in a few loyal people, set them up to take power, and have them hand it over to Beijing.

Because that’s exactly what’s happening with HK now and people here are saying it was a dumb idea. Why repeat it?

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#204

Post by easytiger »

mam2 wrote: post #202
easytiger wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cold weather South of England, particularly London gets pretty low rainfall and decent weather temperatures > Mediocre food You don't know what you are talking about! > expensive prices Compared to what? > and an economy and system on the verge of entering a highly destabilized period. Yea HK definitely won't experience any of that

You are delusional

On what point precisely? Which of my rebuttals of unanchored relative criticism above do you have issue with?

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#205

Post by acdha »

peteretep wrote: post #35
acdha wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s what I keep thinking: this is a dry-run sewing if they’ll get meaningful backlash from the next U.S. President.

Taiwan and Hong Kong couldn’t be more different though. Hong Kong legislature (heavily influenced by China) passed this law (edit: this turns out not to be true). Hong Kong is already part of China. You don’t have 200km of water to cross against a country that’s prepared for just that. There’s no TSMC. If it’s a dry run for Taiwan, it’s a really shitty one.

Taiwan is much harder, but I was thinking more about precedent: if there is not much international blowback, that’s going to tell them that there won’t be major consequences if they try to ratchet Taiwan into their orbit. The U.S. provided a big shield to Taiwan for years but China has built up a lot and Trump has been ceding power as quickly as he can. It’s not clear to me that the other countries in the region or the EU would set a line and hold it for very long. The international businesses acquiescing to expansion in Hong Kong are probably setting the tone.

Remember, this almost certainly wouldn’t just be a straight-up invasion. I’d assume something more like funding pro-China political parties, expanding business and other ties, and then at some point an incident involving a friendly politician asking for help which never leaves. TSMC is important but just one business and not one many people are going to go to war over when business is going to continue mostly as usual.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#206

Post by save_ferris »

joveian wrote: post #168
save_ferris wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppressing the Tianenmen Square uprising. From a UK diplomatic cable describing the scene: > STUDENTS LINKED ARMS BUT WERE MOWN DOWN INCLUDING SOLDIERS. APCS THEN RAN OVER BODIES TIME AND TIME AGAIN TO MAKE QUOTE PIE UNQUOTE AND REMAINS COLLECTED BY BULLDOZER. REMAINS INCINERATED AND THEN HOSED DOWN DRAINS. Say what you will about the US, we still haven’t run citizens over with tanks and hosed them down drains. Sour…

As far as I can tell this is completely false and none of the eyewitnesses have corroborated that account. The famous photo of "Tank Man" provides evidence of a case where this didn't happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man The main wikipedia article on Tianenmen square discusses other estimates of the number of deaths (all others being much lower): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests…

> The famous photo of "Tank Man" provides evidence of a case where this didn't happen.

I disagree, that photo could’ve easily been taken before the killing started. The fact that tank man’s identity or whereabouts are unknown provides evidence that he was probably killed in the demonstrations.

> The British government has itself killed quite a lot of civilians and is hardly a reliable source considering their history with China.

This is completely fallacious. The fact that Britain has killed civilians has no bearing on their truth-telling here. You’re essentially arguing that no country is capable of telling the truth because it’s not realistic to name a country that hasn’t killed civilians at some point, no?

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#207

Post by coldtea »

aswanson wrote: post #34
coldtea wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over here. Not many special "brilliant entrepreneurs". Just regular ole entrepreneurs taking advantage of the specific spot HK was in, and the specific relationship between Britain and China for global trade. Merely bring the same people elsewhere would accomplish no great mir…

There's nothing particularly special about SV VCs /programmers. Just a crapload of capital allocated there. Programmers are abundant throughout the country.

>There's nothing particularly special about SV VCs programmers. Just a crapload of capital allocated there

A crapload of capital tends to statistically attract the best programmers. Some of the biggest problems to solve/employers being there, ditto.

In other words, my comment wasn't about born and raised SV VC/programmers. It was about VC/programmers working in SV.

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#208

Post by coldtea »

fermienrico wrote: post #44
coldtea wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that would give the HKers access to the Pacific and a place to rebuild. I'd love to have those brilliant entrepreneurs and engineers over here. Not many special "brilliant entrepreneurs". Just regular ole entrepreneurs taking advantage of the specific spot HK was in, and the specific relationship between Britain and China for global trade. Merely bring the same people elsewhere would accomplish no great mir…

Not sure if I agree. Maimi tourism shifting to Maine is totally different beast since tourism by definition relies on local sights. SV-based entrepreneurs are already going to places like Austin and Portland. It takes time. It would quicker if we get 3 million people situated in an abstract region of US since the critical mass to get the ball rolling would already have been achieved. It would be a challenge, but not…

>Not sure if I agree. Maimi tourism shifting to Maine is totally different beast since tourism by definition relies on local sights.

But that's my point. The success of HK businesses also relies on the location (and it's special status).

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#209

Post by rurounijones »

Waterfall wrote: post #147
thaumasiotes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism. Immigration is not actually something you need to have.

This is a fact that is hated by many people for some reason. There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still and the homogeneous society has social harmony, with none of the ills of multiculturalism. It's a trade-off for immigration boosting economies in the short term they don't think is worth it.

> There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still

I don't know where you are getting your information that the population of Japan is still growing. Japan's population is already declining.

http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf "Statistical Handbook of Japan" Table 2.2

https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ ( https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources )

https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/japan-demographic...

https://qz.com/1295721/the-japanese-population-is-shrinking-...

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00705/ "Japan’s Population Falls for Ninth Straight Year"

https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a0... "Japan’s population decline accelerates despite record immigration"

Re: Britain to give millions of HKers a path to citizenship

#210

Post by eloff »

trianglem wrote: post #194
thaumasiotes wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism. Immigration is not actually something you need to have.

Yes you do. The paradigm has changed and now you must. In fact it’s abhorrent to have a homogenous population.

Immigration is a must if you don't have a high enough birthrate to sustain economic growth - because we don't know how to manage a declining economy - and why would you accept that when you have the tool of immigration? Not because there is any fundamental need for a racially or culturally diverse population. Those things seem like they would be beneficial in my opinion, but not required.
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