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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#231
I am increasingly of the opinion that this is OK. Neither side is actually interested in a conversation. Businesses are not going to want to reform the H1B to make it less exploitative, and the people who think it's bad for Americans are not going to believe the stated pro-H1B case. People on the visa are stuck in the middle.

I am sympathetic to both sides, but I have no easy solution to propose.

End the damn thing and let's see what happens.

Having been through the gauntlet a few years ago, this might seem like pulling the ladder up behind me. But, I would really like to see the Indian education/employment system diversify out of body-shopping or emigration and into more local innovation and progress. Maybe it won't happen, but something needs to change.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#232

Counterpoint: I’d rather gut the H1B system and ease the path to citizenship. The H1B system just exists for employers to pay lower wages to skilled workers. I would much rather those workers get fast-tracked to citizenship instead. Letting them leave with the money they make here isn’t in our best interests and neither is preventing them from changing companies, which allows employers to underpay them. I would heavi…

Unfortunately this administration would never want to “ease” anything. There was a time in which fast tracking skilled graduates of American schools was a bipartisan consensus - those days are gone.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doctors vs Software Engineers are very interesting case studies in my eyes. AMA (American Medical Association) has successfully lobbied congress to cap residencies at 100K a year, essentially restricting supply. Foreign doctors have to go through a gauntlet of exams, tests, and licenses that keeps market from being flooded with cheaper talent and diluting local doctor salaries. Software Engineers have failed to unite…

> Doctors vs Software Engineers are very interesting case studies in my eyes. Actually, this is a great example. By restricting medical professionals, medical wages went high. Great for them! But for the rest of America, this SUCKS. Medical expenses are through the roof, care cannot be had without selling all your money and often, specialist shortages mean appointments can be had only 3 months later. The lack of liqu…

Oddly, many of those immigrant healthcare professionals who put in the time to complete residency, get certified and take up jobs in under-served rural areas are on H1B visas.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#234
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny though that you see a muuuch more receptive tone to H1B limits here on HN compared to say, a story about American manufacturing going overseas. Quite interesting how one’s perspective on outsourcing changes when it’s YOUR livelihood being threatened.

If millions of Americans were moving to India and taking up huge numbers of the top university spots and jobs, Indians would call it white supremacy, and they'd be right.

Indians would call it white supremacy, and they'd be right.

What’s it called when the Indian government puts the needs of Indian people first? Very few countries, the US being one, even care very much about non-citizens to start with.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#235
post #78

There are 2 sides to every coin. It can be frustrating/demoralizing to American software developers as well, when they go to interview for a job, to see they are competing with an absolute flood of Indian and Chinese H1Bs. Then, when all of your interviewers are Chinese and Indian as well and you don't get the job, you sort of feel like the victim of favoritism and that you've been pushed out of your own country's in…

From "How & Why Government, Universities, & Industry Create Domestic Labor Shortages of Scientists & High-Tech Workers" by Eric Weinstein (2017) https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-gove...

> the real origins of the Immigration Act of 1990s and the H1-B visa classification [...] American industry and Big Science convinced official Washington to put in place a series of policies that had little to do with any demographic concerns. Their aims instead were to keep American scientific employers from having to pay the full US market price of high skilled labor. They hoped to keep the US research system staffed with employees classified as “trainees,” “students,” and “post-docs” for the benefit of employers. The result would be to render the US scientific workforce more docile and pliable to authority and senior researchers by attempting to ensure this labor market sector is always flooded largely by employer-friendly visa holders who lack full rights to respond to wage signals in the US labor market.

> The correlate of these objectives were shifts in orientation toward building bridges to Asia and especially China, so that senior scientists, technologists, and educators could capitalize on technological, employment, and business opportunities from Asian (and particularly Chinese) expansion. This, in turn, would give US scientific employers and researchers access to the products of Asian educational systems which stress drill, rote learning, obedience, and test driven competition while giving them relief from US models which comparatively stress greater creativity, questioning,independence, and irreverence for authority.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#236
post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

> They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Disagree with this, agree with the rest. I've hired (and fired) folks for teams and this is not true at all. The wages in SV are very competitive. At one point we were desperate to get ANYONE who could pass the interview, including dropping the bar for the interview…

I've been involved with fake interviews. (Hence throwaway account.) The context where fake interviews are required is when your firm has hired someone who is on H1B visa but is seeking a green card. To support the green card application it is required to show that the position cannot be filled by an American who is similarly qualified and will accept a similar salary as the immigrant.

In my case the context was my firm had done a true search for filling the position, where the H1B holder was found as the best available applicant. But then we had to do another fake job search for that already-filled position for the purposes of getting our employee a green card.

The hallmarks of a fake job posting, from that experience: (1) there will be only basic advertising of the role, with a strict "no recruiters" rule (2) there will be only one round of phone interview, focusing on a checklist of specific knowledge and experience points and acceptable salary levels

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#237
The Problem is TRADE not H1B . ... every Enterprise level company has IT department in US. the CTO or the VP of the company wants to save money by going to offshore business model ... so how does this work, let say an infrastructure IT support in company consists of ( storage, database, network , System admins etc say about 150 employees) then a new CTO or VP of IT comes in and he decides to go for offshore model then enters the cheap low tech incompetent service companies from Asia bids these projects here .. let say 200 Million dollars for 5 years 24/7 support .. so these Body shopping company decides to have about 60 employees offshore and 10 employees onshore here in USA using H1b visa ... now the CTO of the company feels happy for saving money and starts firing ..sorry (Let go) of those 150 citizens..... this happens in every company across this country i know because I've seen it All..

now those employees who given their flesh and blood to those projects over years gets emotionally raged...at the time of KT( knowledge transfer) to those H1B onshore slaves.. saying you guys are taking our jobs away. and all that BS. BUT they forget One big Logic/common sense..that they lost their jobs because satanic .. crooked CTO's or VP of IT of their own company and due to the company it self .... not because immigrant came over H1B visa..

Let say for the argument of emotional mob .. that the H1b is completely removed by some revolution...do you really think the jobs will come back hahaha... those body-shopping companies will be more happy because that will give them a chance to make more money.. they will make 100% offshore and then they wont even keep those 10 h1b resources onshore.. they will make a deal with those crooked CTOs to operate everything from offshore ...so the emotional mob will be still unemployed even after H1B is removed ..

the solution is the current administration should bring up the trade barriers a Bill to stop offshore business model completely which they wont do since this country is built and run by Rich CEOs.......

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those self-reporting spreadsheets aren't worth the paper they're not printed on. FAANG companies are not hiring H1-B's because it's cheaper. I have been a hiring manager at a couple of FAANG companies, and I can tell you it's just not something we cared about. The only thing I cared about was finding the most qualified people for the team. I had headcount to fill, and it wasn't like that headcount had one salary band…

From what I understand, the H1-B salaries are public, and reported by many websites, such as: https://h1bdata.info/index.php However, curious -- do these include stock grants, etc? I wonder if the posted numbers are only salary and not TC?

I've been on that list before. Here are some truths for that for which I have ground truth to compare to (my W-2):

* It's base alone - no bonus, no stock

* It's base at the time you get on the visa - so mine was two years and some 80k out of date near the end

* My employer at the time used a standard letter for the four or so of us so we all have the same base listed but I know we didn't have the same base. It looks like it was the lowest value. Presumably they just kept the thing that was working.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a new grad, I interviewed at Qualcomm for an embedded software job. I studied hardware, and was very up-front with the hiring manager in the phone screen, and he responded “not to worry about it”. I was flown out to do an on-site interview, and the first thing that struck me, sitting in the lobby for 20 minutes while my first interviewer arrived, was that 100% of the employees who walked through the front…

Are you sure that's the only reason you were dinged? be honest georgia tech guy. I see you. Why is this flagged? because I supposedly misinterpreted a "fake job interview"?

Dinged? The implication is that they brought him in for an interview even though he was unqualified so that they could say they tried, not that he didn't get the job because he wasn't Indian.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#240
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you did that you'd favour profitable industries (say computing) over areas with actual shortages (say Arabic translators in Detroit). You'd also make it impossible for areas with low cost of living (Detroit) to be allocated any H1B visa. It's one of those perennial proposals that always come up but are really poorly thought out when you look into it.

It would also favor really large companies, that don't necessarily hire better engineers, but pay substantially more.

Isn’t that the same case with hiring America workers. I’d also argue that high pay attracts better talent. This why FAANG companies dominate the market since they offer compensation packages higher than anyone else and attract better talent. You could argue it was anti-competitive from a consumer standpoint but it’s beneficial from an employee standpoint. Immigration regulations are designed to protect American employees.
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