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Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#231

Post by stubish »

maps7 wrote: post #138
adev_ wrote: post #78

Not so surprising. You have also the same outliers with Hong Kong and Taiwan. - In Japan, people naturally respect social distancing. Touching someone is considered rude, everyone bows instead of shaking hands and nobody kiss. - Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. - Washing hands is common, being clean (bath cult…

- Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. We're told that masks do not work

Look at who is telling you masks do not work. None of the authoritative sources I've seen over here have said that. They say things that can be misinterpreted that way, like "don't stop transmission" or "don't need masks" or "don't help as much". I haven't seen an authoritative statement that they don't help, either catching or spreading. Yet over here, despite many households already having good masks due to recent fires, few people are wearing them.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#232

Post by barry-cotter »

Jedd wrote: post #225
barry-cotter wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scarves are about the least effective makeshift masks, catching less than 50% of virus sized particles. A tea towel/dish cloth catches over 70% and a vacuum cleaner bag is over 80%, almost as good as a surgical mask. > Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

> ... catching less than 50% of virus sized particles. This is true but irrelevant. You want to catch larger globs that carry virus-sized particles, and almost any material will help to some extent with this.

Not discouraging it, just pointing out that there are much better alternative materials.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#233

Post by timtim2020 »

points not discussed well in western media: 1) they do crashing clusters very well based on this paper. wellhttps://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v...

2) Why packed train in Japan still hasn't caused outbreak They don't speak despite the high density in train (remember - it is utter silence on public transportation in Japan) and all wear masks.

3) Intensive use of chest CT scan to find out critical conditions. They have highest number of CT scan per 1000 people in the world. https://data.oecd.org/healtheqt/computed-tomography-ct-scann... Plus, remember, PCR has high false negative and testing everyone is waste of resources (look at Italy. they tested everyone regardless of severeness of symptom and totally fucked.) You can test a lot only if well-prepared like Korea with SARS experience.

4) Compliance Japan has always suffered from Tsunami, Earthquake, Fukushima, ...etc. They are used to calmly adjust their life without panicking. No toilet paper shortage. They don't get surprised at all with Earthquake with magnitude of 6 unlike Americans in California.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#234

Post by lovemenot »

tsimionescu wrote: post #182
Reason077 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there simply aren't enough masks produced in western countries. If governments directed factories to produce face masks, like they are currently doing for ventilators, then we could have enough. And I believe most people would actually wear them if they were widely available and governments directed it. It seems like that would cost less, and might also be more effective than shutting down half the econ…

If it were more effective, don't you think at least one country on earth would have thought of that? Masks may be able to help a little, but odds are good that if you're in a bus with an infected person coughing or sneezing, you'll be infected with or without a (regular surgical-style) mask. Those masks are almost entirely designed to keep stuff in, not to keep them out of your nose/mouth/eyes. The slightly reduced i…

Think of widespread use of masks as a kind of surrogate herd immunity. Not as a surrogate vaccine. It's only effective in a statistical sense. But it is effective.

I feel the crux of Japanese resilience (vis a vis Western) has been their tendency to consider and act in the group's interest, rather than in own interest.

However, it's far from over and time will tell. Yesterday I saw many people doing hanami, cautiously.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#235

Post by SubiculumCode »

Jommi wrote: post #210
tooltalk wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a few random points to consider: - Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam all in much warmer climate. - hot spots in Italy and Japan are likewise in the northern region: Lombardy in Italy and Hokkaido in Japan. - wearing masks during a global pandemic isn't apparently as fashionable in Japan. - many Japanese elderly, or over 30K per year, die unnoticed in solitude. so it might take a while to catch up. But on the othe…

Could you link some sources to your claims?

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3550308 For some informed ideas about temperatures/climate and coronaviruses

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#236

Post by SubiculumCode »

Jommi wrote: post #210
tooltalk wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a few random points to consider: - Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam all in much warmer climate. - hot spots in Italy and Japan are likewise in the northern region: Lombardy in Italy and Hokkaido in Japan. - wearing masks during a global pandemic isn't apparently as fashionable in Japan. - many Japanese elderly, or over 30K per year, die unnoticed in solitude. so it might take a while to catch up. But on the othe…

Could you link some sources to your claims?

Specifically, https://i.imgur.com/ekiFd9S.png You will see that the largest outbreaks occur at the same temperature gradients

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#237

Post by mirimir »

barry-cotter wrote: post #219
JCharante wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wear a scarf. The OP didn't say criticize people for not wearing mask-alternatives in a time of a shortage, they critized people for not wearing anything. DIY masks may not be as effective, but they still help (some top HN post claimed 70%-80%). This isn't a situation where if you can't do something perfectly you might as well not try. This is a situation that calls for doing anything within reasonable measures (don'…

Scarves are about the least effective makeshift masks, catching less than 50% of virus sized particles. A tea towel/dish cloth catches over 70% and a vacuum cleaner bag is over 80%, almost as good as a surgical mask. > Professional and Home-Made Face Masks Reduce Exposure to Respiratory Infections among the General Population https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440799/

But breathing through a vacuum cleaner bag is too hard.

Still, it might work if you did a radical pleat. I'll try it.

As I recall, two layers of cotton t-shirt is the best option.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#238

Post by timtim2020 »

points not discussed well in western media:

1) they do crashing clusters very well based on this paper. wellhttps://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v...

2) Why packed train in Japan still hasn't caused outbreak They don't speak despite the high density in train (remember - it is utter silence on public transportation in Japan) and all wear masks.

3) Intensive use of chest CT scan to find out critical conditions. They have highest number of CT scan per 1000 people in the world. https://data.oecd.org/healtheqt/computed-tomography-ct-scann... Plus, remember, PCR has high false negative and testing everyone is waste of resources (look at Italy. they tested everyone regardless of severeness of symptom and totally fucked.) You can test a lot only if well-prepared like Korea with SARS experience.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#239

Post by guscost »

luhn wrote: post #191
chrischen wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- People do shake hands in Japan. In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business (I’d imagine the same goes for Japan). - Washing hands is common, but not necessarily any more of a practice than in Western countries. But in many places like in subway station bathrooms they do not have soap. Some of the cultural things like mask wearing (which was born out of the density and close proximit…

> In Western countries hand-shaking is limited almost exclusively to business I can't speak for all Western countries, but in the US I shake hands with every new person I meet, whether in a professional or social settings. I'll also shake hands as a greeting for acquaintances I'm not close with. (As opposed to a hug for close acquaintances.)

Which city? This is not at all ordinary in my experience (at least in social settings - it’s normal in business settings).

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#240

Post by timtim2020 »

points not discussed well in western media:

1) they do crashing clusters very well based on this paper. wellhttps://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029272v....

2) Why packed train in Japan still hasn't caused outbreak They don't speak despite the high density in train (remember - it is utter silence on public transportation in Japan) and all wear masks.

3) Intensive use of chest CT scan to find out critical conditions. They have highest number of CT scan per 1000 people in the world. https://data.oecd.org/healtheqt/computed-tomography-ct-scann.... Plus, remember, PCR has high false negative and testing everyone is waste of resources (look at Italy. they tested everyone regardless of severeness of symptom and totally fucked.) You can test a lot only if well-prepared like Korea with SARS experience.

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