EU beckons Indian tech talent • Hacker News Board

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#231

Post by Isinlor » Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:11 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #227

Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

Your comment breaks many of the site guidelines. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong or bad some other comment is (or you feel it is). Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using this site as intended? Flamewar rants, personal attacks, and denunciatory rhetoric are no way to persuade anyone, let alone to have curious conversation, which is what this site is for. It's clear t…

True. I will rewrite it in a better style.

Thanks for the work you are doing!

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#232

Post by jbapple » Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:12 PM UTC

mk89 wrote: post #155

Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you. Why does wanting more imply having people underneath you? Your comment is full of frustration, hatred and anger, it doesn't have any argument in it. I hope you can see that. The main issue stems from the fact that Europeans have a different lifestyle, therefore, moving forward for them implies having actually higher…

> why would I care about people coming from other countries? I mean, what do I get in return?

This is a pretty stunning question.

Most people care about people other than ourselves. Most people sometimes do things to benefit others, even if they don't "get in return", as you put it, and they expect others to behave similarly. For example:

1. A billion people base their religious beliefs on venerating the self-sacrifice of God dying and/or giving-His-only-begotten-son to help others.

2. Most people believe that people other than themselves can have subjective experiences of joy and pain. Most people would take a little time out of their day, for instance, to help an abandoned, injured infant, even if they would never "get anything in return" for their selfless act; even though the infant can't promise them anything in return or prove that they are suffering, people see a suffering child and feel a sort of basic level of empathy.

3. Almost everyone who has political opinions is arguing not primarily about themselves, but about people more vulnerable than them who are being hurt by existing policy or will be helped by new policy - usually large classes of people that the arguer will never meet.

4. The idea that other people matter is so incredibly common, we diagnose people who cannot experience it with a medical condition sometimes informally called "sociopathy"

So I'm going to assume you know that most people expect you to care about people other than yourself, and I'm going to assume that you actually do care about people other than yourself.

Now try to imagine what it would be like to extend that empathy to foreigners.

That's it. That's the whole trick.

Good luck!

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#233

Post by dang » Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

Isinlor wrote: post #231

dang wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment breaks many of the site guidelines. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong or bad some other comment is (or you feel it is). Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using this site as intended? Flamewar rants, personal attacks, and denunciatory rhetoric are no way to persuade anyone, let alone to have curious conversation, which is what this site is for. It's clear t…

True. I will rewrite it in a better style. Thanks for the work you are doing!

Appreciated!

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#234

Post by Isinlor » Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> flooding the market with people who are happy to earn anything as long as they're allowed to live here is not a market I'd like to compete for work in as it increases the inequality putting all the gains in the hands of the employers.

Look at it from another perspective. You earn a lot, you have skills. You can save money, you can start a company yourself. As you say, people will be willing to work cheaply for you. This will allow you to provide cheap services to other people and you will get to benefit from it as much as you will want.

I understand that you personally may not want to start company. Too much risk, too much effort.

But maybe some of your colleagues would want to take on the challenge.

Why would you want to make it more difficult for them to hire people?

Think about the good that can be achieved by giving people opportunities.

Why this is not what everyone should want?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#235

Post by candiodari » Tue, Dec 24, 2019, 10:38 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #193

elfexec wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. I don't think we should be importing any workers. We have 330 million people and that should be plenty. Importing workers disincentivizes US elites from developing our own local work force. And importing workers hurts the nation that is losing workers. Shouldn't all the indian tech workers be used in india to help india develop? Isn't it morally wrong for a wealthy nation like the US ( or wealthy political e…

Wow, 330 million cannot work today. I would recommend finding out how many adult individuals are there in the labor force. Do the same for EU. You'll soon realize there just aren't enough to support so many industries. I can speak for the US about how labor shortage affects every one. US has the craziest doctor residency programs. This ultimately causes a massive massive shortage of doctors. This affects society in u…

> How did the artificial shortage work out?

You neglected to specify WHO it works out for:

1) the folks getting depleted.

2) the (doctors) who decide on the doctor residency programs and also reap the income of financially depleting folks?

Now truth be told, there is a quality argument to be made here. 2) is the only thing guaranteeing that IF you do get treatment, it is at an acceptable standard. They ALSO use it for personal wealth of course, but also for quality. And this is medical care, bad quality destroys more lives and causes more misery than the author of Doom can imagine. Just take that time when they accidentally (really) disfigured ~50000 babies as an example. Yes really, accidentally. As in "oops, chirality really matters".

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#236

Post by nine_zeros » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 2:47 AM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #235

nine_zeros wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, 330 million cannot work today. I would recommend finding out how many adult individuals are there in the labor force. Do the same for EU. You'll soon realize there just aren't enough to support so many industries. I can speak for the US about how labor shortage affects every one. US has the craziest doctor residency programs. This ultimately causes a massive massive shortage of doctors. This affects society in u…

> How did the artificial shortage work out? You neglected to specify WHO it works out for: 1) the folks getting depleted. 2) the (doctors) who decide on the doctor residency programs and also reap the income of financially depleting folks? Now truth be told, there is a quality argument to be made here. 2) is the only thing guaranteeing that IF you do get treatment, it is at an acceptable standard. They ALSO use it fo…

Are you trying to say that due to the selective nature of medicine, all doctors are already rockstars?

Or

Are you trying to say that all doctors need to he neurosurgeon level smart?

Either way is wrong. Doctors can be a spectrum of quality. The more the doctors for routine checkups and treatments, more and more rockstars doctors can be freed to do rockstar activities.

The current shortage may be great economically for current doctors, but it sucks for you, I, kids and everyone that needs those services

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#237

Post by emeraldx » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:56 AM UTC

As far as I know, there is a minimum salary requirement for the Blue Card visa. So this blows the 'Cheap-talent-taking-over, Reduced-average-wages' argument out of the water.

IMO, the reason this is happening is simple. 1) H1-B visas have an arbitrary numerical limitation every year, which is not tied to reflect the actual dearth of talent, and hasn't been updated since years.

2) They're extremely unreliable. You can only apply once a year, and it's a lottery. So employers aren't even sure if the candidate currently interviewing can get a work permit if hired. And the wait time to reapply is one year. Very inefficient.

3) The EU/Canada/Australia have a very streamlined visa process, allowing qualified candidates to quickly get a visa. Easy to attract and retain talent.

If done right, these countries will benefit hugely like the US did in past decades. The new workers means more taxes, more demand/consumer spending and hence boost to the economy.

Also, I must mention the low birth rates in EU (as normally happens in developed countries) which will start to show next generation onwards. If not for these new immigrants and their tax dollars (euros/francs/kronas) it'll be hard to keep up with the social benefits and expenditure. If not for immigration these countries will end up like Japan with an old population and in massive, compounding debt.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#238

Post by echaozh » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 8:27 AM UTC

pnako wrote: post #89

hos234 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal. You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will…

> If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Are you serious? Countries with traditions of engineering going back centuries, with some of the best schools in the field, will have trouble to find... 300 software engineers?

300 unemployed engineers, or you're just moving the hiring problem to the smaller companies with their engineers suddenly gone.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#239

Post by thbr99 » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 4:53 PM UTC

foepys wrote: post #115

thbr99 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Indians and Chineese can live there with the salary they get. Why can't you ? What makes you different ? Indians & Chineese are buying foreign products in their countries. Why can't other countries accept goods(human resources) in return ? It's a global economy.

Indian and Chinese immigrants don't have family in the EU. They might have one later but they don't need a higher salary to support them when they first move to the EU.

Foreign products flood the local market and destroys local businesses. Eg: Walmart crushing local grocery stores in another country.

Here the product is human resources. Why is that a problem in the global economy. Have anti dumping or counter vailing for foreign labour too then ?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#240

Post by ben_w » Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

foepys wrote: post #211

ben_w wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Raising children on 30k€ in a city in Western Europe is scratching on the government defined poverty line. What do you base this on? Based on [0], the poverty threshold in Germany is €13.152/year, and Germany is one of the richer EU nations. Even if that’s a working single parent and one child, €30k isn’t scratching the poverty line. [0] https://m.dw.com/en/germanys-minimum-wage-is-barely-above-th...

30k is gross and 13k is net income, those are very different things. You also only looked at the poverty line for singles, not for couples (or single parent) with children. But you are in good company in this thread as nearly nobody takes children into account. Raising children on the poverty line is not the right way.

The poverty line is defined as 60% of median income, not by needs. In the UK there is also the phrase “living wage” which seems to be about needs rather than relative wealth, but I don’t know enough German to get past the opening paragraph of news (I have the German vocabulary of an 8-year-old, which is somehow all you seem to need for CEFR B1) so if an equivalent exists here, I don’t know it yet.

Fair point about gross/net:

€13.152 times two people = €26.304, and for reference €30k gross, category 2, one child = 21.018,18 € net, so about €5k short if that’s how family poverty is defined.