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Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

blog.acolyer.org

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Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#231

Post by masukomi »

jwr wrote: post #45
atoav wrote: post #30

When I select software these are among the list of things I am looking for generally: - file formats that won’t lock you in or are even openly hackable (allows you to automate things) - no clouds that will break the software once it is gone - local storage with custom syncing or backup options - strictly no weird data collection or “We own the rights to your data”-Type of terms So if I get the slightest feeling of a…

While I fully agree with your selection criteria, please consider the other side of the equation, because engineering (and the world) is all about compromises. I am the author of a SaaS app ( https://partsbox.io/ ). I export in open formats (JSON), there is no lock-in, it's easy to get all of your data at any time. But the app is online and will remain so. Why? Economics. Maintaining a self-hosted solution is an enor…

> Maintaining a self-hosted solution is an enormous cost, which most people forget about. You need to create, document, maintain and support an entirely different version of your software (single-user, no billing/invoicing, different email sending, different rights system, etc).

I think you're not looking at this from a local-first perspective. From that perspective you can have the same app locally as on the server. There's only one version. Yes, it does require more planning and atypical approaches, but it's 100% doable.

I'm in the planning stage of a local first web-app that will have a server side version, and it's literally going to be the exact same code on both.

I can see some arguments for having _slight_ differences between server and client software but nothing that isn't easy for a solo-dev to maintain. Mostly set it up once and never touch it again type things.

thinking local-first has fundamentally changed some decisions i normally make without thinking for web apps, but I think it will absolutely be worth it for my users in the end.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#232

Post by masukomi »

JohnFen wrote: post #191
jwr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe a one-time fee for software is fundamentally unsustainable, and a relic of the past, when we had no networking and our operating systems did not evolve quickly. Every piece of software needs maintenance and support. Also, a lot of people seem to forget that even if we pretended that support isn't necessary, just the existence of a standalone version imposes ongoing costs: there is more testing, and the scop…

> I believe a one-time fee for software is fundamentally unsustainable I strongly disagree. I have always, up to this day, sold software on that model, and I will probably always do so. There's nothing unsustainable about it. What is true is that rent-seeking can be much more profitable. But fortunately for those of us who find it very distasteful, it's not necessary.

what do you do when you've saturated the market?

one-time fee only works if you have a constant stream of new customers into your niche that is sufficient to pay your salary.

with upgrades or subscriptions you can have a group of users who love what you do and are happy to support you without having to hope for new users and constantly market to get them.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#233

Post by masukomi »

ryandrake wrote: post #213
jwr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I fully agree with your selection criteria, please consider the other side of the equation, because engineering (and the world) is all about compromises. I am the author of a SaaS app ( https://partsbox.io/ ). I export in open formats (JSON), there is no lock-in, it's easy to get all of your data at any time. But the app is online and will remain so. Why? Economics. Maintaining a self-hosted solution is an enor…

A lot of software doesn’t have to be “hosted” anywhere. The first question I usually have when trying out some web-based software is: “Why on earth can’t this be a native application that I just download and run? Why are they shoving a web browser and server into this thing?” With a cross-platform native application, you bypass the whole on-prem vs hosted question entirely. I wonder how often the answer is simply “We…

i agree but would add that there are a number of reasons why your browser as the client is a better long term strategy that minimizes maintenance. Unless you want a really generic geeky bare-bones UI. Native UI toolkits don't have a long lifespan. You constantly need to tweak what you've built for changes in the latest version of the OS.

However, that doesn't mean it needs to be "hosted" anywhere. It's trivial to make an app run a little web server that they access with their browser instead of a native or QT UI.

Browser based interfaces are an excellent bet (probably the best bet) for "run as-is, forever" or as close to "forever" as we can reasonably get right now.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#234

Post by jmathai »

emilburzo wrote: post #218
jmathai wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uploading to both services is still supported through the Backup and Sync app. But once uploaded they are independent copies and deleting from one doesn't delete from the other. I also expect that this support will be deprecated at some point in the future. Not keeping Drive and Photos in sync really killed it for me. I ended up switching from Google Drive to Dropbox but I still use Google Photos. I have photos added…

I see. I was hoping there was still some way to quickly backup from google photos directly to linux.

There's also rclone. https://github.com/rclone/rclone

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#235

Post by JohnFen »

masukomi wrote: post #232
JohnFen wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe a one-time fee for software is fundamentally unsustainable I strongly disagree. I have always, up to this day, sold software on that model, and I will probably always do so. There's nothing unsustainable about it. What is true is that rent-seeking can be much more profitable. But fortunately for those of us who find it very distasteful, it's not necessary.

what do you do when you've saturated the market? one-time fee only works if you have a constant stream of new customers into your niche that is sufficient to pay your salary. with upgrades or subscriptions you can have a group of users who love what you do and are happy to support you without having to hope for new users and constantly market to get them.

> what do you do when you've saturated the market?

If I want to continue active development on it, then I sell upgrades. If not, then I'll continue to do free maintenance releases, but my main business will be from different products.

> one-time fee only works if you have a constant stream of new customers into your niche that is sufficient to pay your salary.

You can continue to get income from existing customers. You just have to provide real value to them in exchange for it.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#236

Post by shreyshrey »

Tonido (https://www.tonido.com) is a good local-first personal cloud. It allows you to access, share files stored in your PC from anywhere.

We are giving it free for almost 10 years. The longevity is higher than many cloud services :). You own your data.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#237

Post by 72deluxe »

calferreira wrote: post #221
72deluxe wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure on that really. I built a cross-platform control software for high-end audio equipment that ran on macOS and Windows and did all of its own drawing (charts, graphs, ALL controls [knobs, buttons, grids, faders etc etc etc], 2D overview with links of all devices, 3D scene of venue layout with OpenGL, diagrams, alerts and floating popup windows). No bitmaps used anywhere, all generated in code. Another guy…

The difference between you and the big corps is, you care, they don't. You care about delivering a high quality and high performance application, big corps just want to sell a product. Also, just because they have a bigger budget doesn't mean they are all about spending it, they probably want to squeeze it as much as they can.

Sad but true. A soul-destroying observation if I may say so!

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#238

Post by anoncake »

RustyBucket wrote: post #79
jwr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that, unfortunately, is entirely unrealistic. When I discover critical bugs, I can't leave users out in the cold. I believe that the whole concept of "software without support" is fundamentally flawed.

I think we as engineers owe our users bug fixes, because we messed up at some point. However new functionality or email/phone support? Well, this is what people are not entitled for.

Only for a limited time though, releasinga piece of software shouldn't be a lifetime commitment.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#239

Post by anoncake »

have_faith wrote: post #135

> you OWN YOUR data Like most people here I'm fairly hard line when it comes to personal data abuses but I still struggle with the concepts of owning data about yourself. It's a confusion I see amongst less technically literate people when a well meaning person explains to them the importance of some latest data breach and they try to understand the concept that they owned this data, it was theirs but now it has been…

What's ownership? It's the right or ability how something is used and what happens to it. The term fits here.
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