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Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

blog.acolyer.org

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Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#191

Post by JohnFen »

jwr wrote: post #69
thu2111 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an unreasonable assumption, right? It's just an extrapolation from how desktop/local software has always worked. Demanding a subscription for something that doesn't, technically, need any maintenance or ongoing costs on your part is a relatively new thing. Yes, of course, people expect a stream of updates these days for security if nothing else. But you could sell a version of your app that's static - urge…

I believe a one-time fee for software is fundamentally unsustainable, and a relic of the past, when we had no networking and our operating systems did not evolve quickly. Every piece of software needs maintenance and support. Also, a lot of people seem to forget that even if we pretended that support isn't necessary, just the existence of a standalone version imposes ongoing costs: there is more testing, and the scop…

> I believe a one-time fee for software is fundamentally unsustainable

I strongly disagree. I have always, up to this day, sold software on that model, and I will probably always do so. There's nothing unsustainable about it.

What is true is that rent-seeking can be much more profitable. But fortunately for those of us who find it very distasteful, it's not necessary.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#192

Post by JohnFen »

jwr wrote: post #58
rgun wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best part is that many people think that an on-premises version should be less expensive than the online version, and come without a subscription. Which makes sense IMHO, provided they are not expecting any updates to their on-prem installation. It can just be a fork of your current codebase with no new features or warranty. Maybe you can include some terms for critical security updates but that is about it.

But that, unfortunately, is entirely unrealistic. When I discover critical bugs, I can't leave users out in the cold. I believe that the whole concept of "software without support" is fundamentally flawed.

I sell nothing but on-prem software, and have never left my customers "out in the cold" or without support.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#193

Post by at-fates-hands »

Is this something like Blockstack could help with?

https://blockstack.org/

I'm having a hard time understanding the differences between "Local-first technology" and something like Blockstack. I'm not saying BS completely solves the issues pointed out in the blog post, but it seems to me its pretty close.

What do you think?

here is a list of the current apps available: https://app.co/blockstack

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#194

Post by Spearchucker »

sounds wrote: post #185
mceachen wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for taking the time to share this! The issue I face with PhotoStructure is that people's home network frequently has throttled upstream rates. I'd love to provide a caching CDN, but I want all content encrypted. I don't want my pipes to see any data from my users. How would you do perfect forward secrecy when only the library owner's key is available at upload time? Is it possible? If not, it seems that every…

One option is an envelope keys. Content is encrypted and published by the owner, but the owner uses a new random key to do the encryption. This new random key is the "envelope key." The owner then takes the envelope key, encrypts it with the public key of recipient A, and publishes the encrypted message containing the envelope key. (This message with the envelope key should also be signed by the owner using the owner…

This gets complex fast. The access control list needs to travel with the data. Revocation can theoretically take forever (until all offline clients get back online). Onwer signing content is great but breaks rule 4 (It should support collaboration).

I've been working on my own personal-use app for my twin and I to collaborate on documents from different continents so pretty close to the problem.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#195

Post by mebreuer »

have_faith wrote: post #135

> you OWN YOUR data Like most people here I'm fairly hard line when it comes to personal data abuses but I still struggle with the concepts of owning data about yourself. It's a confusion I see amongst less technically literate people when a well meaning person explains to them the importance of some latest data breach and they try to understand the concept that they owned this data, it was theirs but now it has been…

This comment made me think about how uneven the expectations are about whether data is owned by the person who collected it or the person who it was collected about.

I think most people would agree that if you take a photo of someone who agrees to you taking it, you own the rights to that photo. But if a company collects data about someone voluntarily using that company's product, the person owns that data? I don't understand where the line is drawn.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#196

Post by efreak »

procombo wrote: post #136
jka wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks! Having to experience the inventory management problem regularly certainly helps inspire & validate solutions :) The setup you had sounds extremely cool - did you hit any particular challenges around the SKU data wrangling? I've added a naive rules-based approach to categorizing products into supermarket departments (bakery, fruit & veg, ...) - it's really barebones at the moment, but already helps planning wa…

Yeah. I was definitely very AdHoc. A typical grocery store here in the US has about like, what, 20k SKUs? But I personally only really deal with maybe 200 of those, so at the time I just managed the data manually. (Plugged that USB scanner into a laptop and scanned every item into Excel --Scan, type. Scan, type. Then imported that into MySQL.) I looked into data providers mostly because I wanted item photos. (Ultimat…

Self checkout machines in the US are primarily a way to have someone working multiple registers. Working retail, you'll regularly see an entire line stop flat while payment gets processed or a problematic item/customer comes through. Self checkout stones this problem by only requiring a single employee be available for up to four registers (in my experience) while customers do the work themselves. Another advantage is that if the store is fully staffed, people with issues (returns, price mismatches, complaints, etc) are likely to get them resolved faster than if everyone with a small order was ahead of them.

It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, but as a retail worker, that's my understanding.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#197

Post by bdcravens »

mceachen wrote: post #171
koheripbal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to identity management, maybe there should be a formalized integration between browsers and password managers such that the concept of "registration" goes away and new logins just automatically create user accounts with default permissions, according to email address.

Centralized identity management was the grand promise of OAuth. It seems that somehow ended up, in most practical applications, as a "login with Facebook" button. There are a number of startups working on simplified or "passwordless" auth, but it seems that none have substantive traction. I'd love to be proven wrong, here, though!

Before that there was Microsoft Passport. Federated login for the web is a “problem” various parties have been working on for 20 years.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#198

Post by brynb »

krzepah wrote: post #85

Hi everyone, I've been working on this subject for a few months already ; Thank you OP, your work is wonderful to read and even though I've spent a few months on the idea already I haven't thought of reusing Dropbox or similar. I think exciting things are about to come :) I'd like to submit Working Group proposal to the IETF. Why would we need an RPC for Independent Apps? Independent Apps are surfacing as being a sol…

You should check out the Braid project. We're already working on IETF drafts for a protocol of this nature within the HTTP working group.

- https://github.com/braid-work/braid-spec

- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/braid-http

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#199

Post by procombo »

tnorthcutt wrote: post #186
rrdharan wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did you stop using this scanner setup?

but abandoned it when we hired a nanny who took care of cooking

Yes. As much as I liked having an inventory, it was still "work"... and a very easy thing to drop from a list of employee responsibilities.

I still have the components in a box somewhere. I was thinking about installing it in our basement "cold storage"/"emergency food storage" room for longer term items. But I just don't access those items enough to justify drilling a hole in the concrete wall for DC power.

Re: Local-first software: you own your data, in spite of the cloud

#200

Post by brynb »

I've been working for a few months on a database called Redwood that's intended to make it easier to build this kind of software. Having spent much of the past couple of years working with libp2p, IPFS, Dat, and similar technologies, I was curious to see what would result if I started from the ground up.

https://github.com/brynbellomy/redwood

So far, the model seems promising. It's fully peer-to-peer, and supports decentralized identity, configurable conflict resolution, read/write access, asset storage, and currently is running across 3 different transports:

- HTTP (augmented with extensions proposed by the Braid project [1][2])

- Libp2p

- WebRTC

I've included two simple demos, a collaborative document editor (well, it's just a textarea at the moment), and a chat app. Would appreciate any feedback or participation that folks are willing to give.

[1] https://github.com/braid-work/braid-spec

[2] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/braid-http

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