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Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

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Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#231

Post by undersuit »

rukittenme wrote: post #149
modernista wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that’s not improving the planet even a bit. Arguably it raises awareness and the shard belief in at least the principle of individual responsibility. Against the overwhelming tide of the "Fuck it, I'll be dead before this shit starts to really come down on our heads anyway" which would otherwise be the reigning default.

Stop raising awareness and start triaging. At a certain point, everyone is aware of the top line issues and you just need to prioritize public attention. You (obviously) can't do this on your own and, at a certain level, the environmental movement's focus on bogus, small-time, feel-good issues reveals its cynicism. BUT PLEASE, stop defending it. You're just empowering those looking for a reason to resent the movement…

>Stop raising awareness and start triaging.

Like trying to start banning categories of plastic? Straws and shopping bags?

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#232

Post by istjohn »

pembrook wrote: post #217
spodek wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at elements loses sight of the system. The boats are there as part of a system driven by growth in GDP and population, externalizing costs, and related goals. We can say it's not us tossing the bottle overboard, but buying things the boats transport supports the system. Among the most important leverage points for changing a system are its goals and values. Changing from growth to enjoying what we have and fr…

I believe you are genuinely trying to help solve the problem. However I think your plan of action is misguided, and is making things worse. Your ideas only appeal to certain personality types in rich countries. They make an enemy out of everybody else. Your framing of the solution as "Humans need to change from growth to enjoying what we have" is wrong. This is diametrically opposed to human nature--you're literally…

You're misguided if you think we can prevent the coming climate catastrophe without making any sacrifices. It's not technological solutions or make tough choices. It's both. Perhaps your path would work if we started down it in earnest 40 years ago, but it's too late now. We're not going to turn this ship around with half measures.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#233

Post by rsj_hn »

undersuit wrote: post #229
paulgerhardt wrote: post #121

I spend a day or two every year cleaning up a beach on a island off the coast of China. Its location relative to local sea currents makes it a natural garbage trap. It has been a radicalizing experience but maybe not in the way you would think. Anecdotally about a third of the trash I pick up is fishing related - some nets, some buoys, but mostly thousands of small plastic sardine sized fishing net floats. About a th…

>Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. Straws are completely superfluous. If you take away my straw I can continue drinking the beverage. Chips need a container, sure I'd prefer more bulk bins and recycled containers, but if we banned plastic containers for chips you interfere mightily in someone enjoying their product. ANYWA…

Most people's teeth are sensitive to cold. They like to use straws to be able skip the teeth while ingesting a cold beverage. This is why the straw was invented -- to make it easy to consume icy cold drinks.

Very strange that this must be explained to people who think straws are completely superfluous. If they were superfluous, people wouldn't be using them. This is a great example of Chesterton's Fence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

Unfortunately this is a widespread problem that dominates environmental activism in privileged wealthy countries. I wouldn't necessarily call the Straw Banners "Bad Actors" or "Trouble Makers", just foolish people. You have people venturing into areas they know nothing about and suddenly start trying to ban things before even understanding what the issues are. Serious people know that reducing plastic use or the production of plastics is not the issue, but having secure disposal systems is how you keep garbage out of the ocean. Moreover, the problem is almost entirely in the third world where secure disposal systems don't exist. Nothing that you do or don't consume here is going to make a difference in terms of what ends up in the ocean.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#234

Post by hombre_fatal »

easytiger wrote: post #133
intarga wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something in particular necessary about animal protein, that it gets a distinct category from just protein in general? It also stands to reason that if that many people really are dependent on fish, it will be devastating to them when overfishing and pollution destroy fish stocks. All the more reason to reduce fishing and build alternatives now.

> Is there something in particular necessary about animal protein, that it gets a distinct category from just protein in general Pretty worrying that people don't know that the only real sources of essential acids critical to humans are from seafood, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) They aren't optional and the body sucks at synthesising them.

Humans can get EPA from algae, same as where fish get it, among other sources. Just look up "algae based omega 3 supplement". The body synthesizes DHA from all sorts of seeds and oils, else we'd be screwed.

Weirdly smug, alarmist post.

There are people who never eat seafood. Reading your post, you'd have to assume such people would be dead.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#235

Post by undersuit »

agent008t wrote: post #215
proaralyst wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are paper straws the wrong solution? Even if they take a little more energy to produce they at least don't leave long-term waste behind.

Doesn't paper production require trees to be cut down?

Make them buy trees that have been grown just for paper(they definitely exist), no one's going to cut down old growth for paper... seriously that's prime high margin furniture material.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#236

Post by stekern »

forgotmypw3 wrote: post #216
Tomminn wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fishing gets me. I used to fish from the shoreline a lot, but when I went snorkeling in a couple of beautiful places in the world all the lost tackle and line just made me angry at my past self. It's very hard to fish from the shoreline without leaving trash everywhere. It's hard to think that every dollar I spent on tackle was a dollar I spent polluting the shoreline. It was out of sight, so it was out of mind.…

It's thinking like this that led me down the path of rejecting money/currency for the most part. Every dollar I spent is a vote for producing more of whatever I'm buying, directly correlated with habitat loss (for humans included) and animal deaths. And each transaction is like a curtain from behind which the finished product appears, handed to you with no information about its origin.

That's an interesting perspective. How does such an approach play out in practice?

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#237

Post by undersuit »

jwilk wrote: post #202
mumblemumble wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorites are made of nylon. It's a much lighter material than what most stores are selling as reusable bags. Enough so that you can easily keep 1 or 2 with you all the time if you're the kind of person to carry a purse or courier bag. Meaning that, unlike those canvas bags or the ones made out of that big heavy stiff plastic material, they're convenient enough to actually get used regularly. I found one study tha…

How does this hatred manifest?

Maybe because the normal unused plastic bags are in that sheet you can just peel one off and it is easily opened up thanks to the design of the plastic bag holder. While if I was recycling them they are probably a wadded bundle inside another plastic bag.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#238

Post by undersuit »

knodi123 wrote: post #212
codesushi42 wrote: post #208

The pointless use of plastic is astounding. Just the other day I was sorting through electronic cables that were individually packaged in their own plastic bags. What the fuck was the point? Even the actual connector pins had their own dedicated plastic covers, and the cable was tied with a plastic tie. Yet the plastic bags were somehow still needed? Jesus fucking Christ.

The reason is that each cable in its own package is a separate SKU, purchased from a separate supplier, and tossed one-per on an assembly line that is filling the box you finally received. I suspect that if, say, samsung or nintendo was told to stop putting bags on every single cable, they'd just add a step to their assembly line for snipping open the existing bags and tossing them in the garbage. The real solution w…

>if, say, samsung or nintendo was told to stop putting bags on every single cable...

Maybe, until they can rework the contract with the supplier to just receive the cables unpackaged.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#239

Post by dsfyu404ed »

brianwawok wrote: post #112
maccard wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's definitely a huge shift to reducing plastic packaging. On the consumer side. You now no longer see the packaging as it arrives to your house. Do an image search for Pallet Deliveries (I don't want to point fingers) and look at just how much plastic wrap comes on the "reduced waste" packaging, when it's delivered to your supermarket/department store. It's utterly astonishing.

Do you know how many pallets you can wrap with one roll of stretch wrap? I bet there is a teaspoon of oil in the stretch wrap for an entire pallet of goods. It’s like 6 miles down the plastic use chart.

It's a lot easier and more econmical to recycle and properly manage waste when the waste is centralized at a commercial facility.

The home machinist trashes his chips, the production shop scraps them.

Re: Ocean plastic waste probably comes from ships, report says

#240

Post by undersuit »

rsj_hn wrote: post #233
undersuit wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Straws are a very small part of that and a weird thing to fixate on relative to all the other one time use food waste we generate. Straws are completely superfluous. If you take away my straw I can continue drinking the beverage. Chips need a container, sure I'd prefer more bulk bins and recycled containers, but if we banned plastic containers for chips you interfere mightily in someone enjoying their product. ANYWA…

Most people's teeth are sensitive to cold. They like to use straws to be able skip the teeth while ingesting a cold beverage. This is why the straw was invented -- to make it easy to consume icy cold drinks. Very strange that this must be explained to people who think straws are completely superfluous. If they were superfluous, people wouldn't be using them. This is a great example of Chesterton's Fence. https://en.w…

You roll your lower lip over your bottom front teeth, bring the container to your mouth, and pour the liquid into your mouth while gently resting the lip of the container on your lip.
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