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Google's software mistreats or harms the user

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Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#231
post #201

The DRM stance is ambiguous IMO. Property rights of content creators are generally considered worth protecting in a good society. The issue is with locked down software which 1) abuses this privacy to violate user privacy, and 2) takes the creative freedoms that the software publishers enjoyed when they wrote their software and creates a contract which denies those freedoms to their users. I feel like we would better…

DRM (Digital Restrictions Machinations) being an ineffective and harmful measure isn't ambiguous. There is no reciprocity to them, and they are generally neither imposed by nor respectful of creators.

Don't consume that content then! You don't own the content!

Does DRM work against businesses who implement it? I'd say hell yes it does. It drives people to piracy.

But I don't think inventing childish, misleading names is going to fix anything. Much better to point out how it causes people pain (unstoppable commercials, inability to play content on all the devices you own, etc).

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(a) he does not do it (b) it is not really possible for those whom he wants to "empower" to live like it is 1980s while maintaining life as it is needed in 2019. This is why he rubs people the wrong way when he peddles his philosophy as something that is possible in practice. Do I, a person who is pretty happy playing with computers, writing code, sometimes helping others with their technological issues or helping th…

> Yeah, now we know why his companion is a parrot. To what end would you write something like that? Also, as far as I know he likes staying with people who have a parrot, but asks people explicitly not to give him a parrot because he's often travelling and couldn't properly care for it. I doubt he has a parrot.

Rhetorical device. The same kind of a device him and FSF use when they call auto-complete a "key logger"

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking a random point: DRM is malware. It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do. Of course there is no alternative as long as consumers accept it. And consumers don't care since it all seems to work.

Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data. There are plenty of issues with DRM from a practical and philosophical level. But I think calling it malware is disingenuous. Alice doesn't cede her rights over her data by transmitting it to Bob, and…

> Say you want to send data to an untrusted destination and want the data to be read-only and non-copyable. DRM is the solution. That's not malware, it's part of the threat/loss prevention model for certain kinds of data.

That's a nice way of phrasing it from the business point of view. From the customer point of view, it's degrading the product and artificially limiting the ways one can interact with it. It goes against the fundamental principle of general-purpose computing: as a computer owner, I get to tell what the computer can and cannot do with the data it has.

DRM in its most general form exists as a way to (try to) make some data follow a different set of rules than the rules of the medium. It's an attempt of making bits have colour[0]. Since bits don't, and can't, have colour, you have to simulate this by changing the rules of the universe in which those bits are processed. It's practically impossible to do correctly, hence the product degradation that always accompanies DRM schemes.

Adding insult to injury, DRM is usually employed to force a recurring revenue stream in a context where it fundamentally doesn't make sense.

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[0] - https://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#234
Honest question: in many cases, how can you _not_ have a backdoor? Obviously, it depends on what kind of software you're writing, but pieces like this seem to have this utopian goal of software that "just works", independent of any human except its user. In reality though, other humans are always necessary — whether to explain how to use the technology, to do something that can't be done through the software, to fix the software (after isolating the problem using your data).

If there's trust between the user and the software provider, why not leverage it to fill in the gaps that software leaves in functionality. If there's no trust, how do you use software without giving the provider the keys to the kingdom?

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#235
post #25

Almost all of this is heavily exaggerated, presenting relatively innocuous features as if they were harmful, or calling out simple bugs as if they were intentional and actively malicious. None of it is flat-out wrong per-se (at least as far as I can tell), and I can certainly see where GNU is coming from, but I think for the average user most of the features they're criticizing actually do a lot more good than harm.…

This is my #1 issue with the FSF, and a lot of these types of arguments originate with RMS himself. RMS has always put a lot of energy into trying to get people to use other words to describe common things, and the other words always spin those things in some really obvious and extreme way. Insisting that everyone say GNU/Linux is the one most people are familiar with, but other things like always referring to DRM as "Digital Restrictions Management", etc. Or heck, trying to redefine the very generic but positive word "free" to mean a whole host of very very specific and often unintuitive things.

The FSF/RMS insistence on calling things by different words seems so irrational and dishonest. Likewise with taking common words with many meanings (like "free") and claiming that word as their own, then claiming that what "free" really means in the context of software can only be expressed once you tack on several KB of legalese that tells you what you can't do with it and how you're a bad person if you do. It's like the naming of the PATRIOT Act- it had nothing to do with patriotism, but it surely changed people's perceptions of it in subtle ways. What congressman would vote against patriotism? How could anyone be opposed to freedom? It's the same BS rhetorical trick, and it makes whoever uses that trick seem less honest and more irrational (to me at least). It's still an effective propaganda technique, which is exactly why they should avoid these sorts of rhetorical tricks. I don't want to hear their propaganda, I want to hear their philosophy. Because if their philosophy is truly built on a foundation of propaganda and rhetorical tricks, then their philosophy is meaningless. I agree with much of what the FSF advocates but they've always done such a terrible job advocating for it.

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, now we know why his companion is a parrot. To what end would you write something like that? Also, as far as I know he likes staying with people who have a parrot, but asks people explicitly not to give him a parrot because he's often travelling and couldn't properly care for it. I doubt he has a parrot.

Rhetorical device. The same kind of a device him and FSF use when they call auto-complete a "key logger"

[deleted]

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> also an insincere definition of DRM I have no idea what you mean by that. I really need you to elaborate, because it sounds like a perfect description of DRM. It's there to stop you from playing/copying files, and nothing else.

The purpose is to extend what I as the producer of the files can do, giving me the ability to send you a file and still control your usage.

Extends what you can do, by letting you control (limit) my usage.

So instead of "It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do." we have "It is extra software with the only purpose to limit what I can do, on the bidding of someone else."

That's basically the same definition. The "someone else" part was already implied by the first half, obviously some party wants it or there would be no conflict. So we've reached a clearer and more explicit definition, but we've also shown that the original definition is not insincere at all!

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#238
Ironically, I opened this in a new tab just before going on a two hour saga of fighting Chrome's autocomplete behavior and losing. That particular decision of Google's is so painful to deal with, and I'm not alone, this issue is well worth skimming through, just for fun: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=587466

It's been three years since they broke autocomplete="off", and in the meantime forms are less secure (for multi-user computers), user-friendly (e.g. when the web app provides its own autocomplete, which then gets hidden by Chrome's), and error-prone (when the same field means different things in different contexts, like when filling out a customer's address rather than your own).

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM isn't about them not sending the product - it's about them sending the product and then hijacking the computer I own to prevent me from using the product the way I like. DRM schemes are anti-user decisions in the sense that users are presented with a choice of either allowing companies to hijack their machines to enforce a subpar experience, or walking away.

The product is the media content. Our society and legal framework says you don't own that content. You might own your device, but you don't own that bit of data stored on it. Said data owner requires you to consume the data in certain ways. How do you reconcile the two conflicting requirements? One way is to invent crazy DRM schemes. Of course, I'd argue most DRM pushes normal people to piracy because the restriction…

> How do you reconcile the two conflicting requirements? One way is to invent crazy DRM schemes.

Another way is to not do it. The law does not require you to implement crazy DRM schemes, it requires me to not distribute copyrighted work to which I don't own the copyright.

The law doesn't force companies to implement DRM. It's a choice, and as a choice, it can be considered malicious action by customers.

Grocery stores doesn't hire large amount of security people so that every customer would have a security person assigned to them that follows them around and ensures they don't steal anything. They could do it, I don't think any law anywhere prevents them from doing that. But the first one to try it would quickly lose all its customers. If such a practice happened to get ultimately established (e.g. normalized by stores in non-commodity position), I suspect the meatspace equivalent of FSF would be ranting about it too.

Re: Google's software mistreats or harms the user

#240

Honest question: in many cases, how can you _not_ have a backdoor? Obviously, it depends on what kind of software you're writing, but pieces like this seem to have this utopian goal of software that "just works", independent of any human except its user. In reality though, other humans are always necessary — whether to explain how to use the technology, to do something that can't be done through the software, to fix…

All your questions have a single answer, which FSF is arguing for: Free Software. No, seriously:

> In reality though, other humans are always necessary — whether to explain how to use the technology,

You can do that through good UI design, manuals, tutorials and support (possibly paid support).

> to do something that can't be done through the software, to fix the software

This doesn't mean the people doing this have to be the vendors selling the software. You should be able to do it yourself, or hire a third party.

> (after isolating the problem using your data).

Doesn't justify getting that data without consent.

> If there's trust between the user and the software provider, why not leverage it to fill in the gaps that software leaves in functionality.

One of the point of Free Software is that this shouldn't be a two-party relationship. The relationship should include all other users of the software, and put them all in similar positions of power.

(Personal aside: maybe this is because I'm past my 20s, but I start to hate this growing trend where buying a product forces you to establish a relationship with a vendor. I don't want a relationship, I want the product.)

> If there's no trust, how do you use software without giving the provider the keys to the kingdom?

Open source.

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