Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#231

Post by jayd16 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:54 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #22

DonHopkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.

They have working (but maybe not production ready) AOT and JIT LLVM targets for .NET Core. Where can Java go that C# can't?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#232

Post by fcurts » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #103

mateuszf wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GPL is not usable for any small company which doesn't want to publish its own sources. Maybe I'm missing something, but AFAIU you have to publish any changes to that library, not your sources.

There are different levels of what’s allowed for different GPL based licenses. To use a library as a library with another license a GPL library exception has to exist for the library etc. If you step on only one of such mines your whole product has to be GPL-ed. It the context of my questions here, and as an example, my guess is that I can't use graalvm to produce a binary which I can sell without either open sourcin…

> my guess is that I can't use graalvm to produce a binary which I can sell without either open sourcing everything I've made or paying too much to Oracle.

GraalVM CE is licensed under GPL 2 with Classpath exception (https://github.com/oracle/graal/blob/master/LICENSE), specifically so that binaries created with GraalVM (which contain the GraalVM runtime) don't fall under the GPL.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#233

Post by pridkett » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

tatersolid wrote: post #152

pjmlp wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?

Microsoft is currently the most valuable company in the world.

Most valuable _publicly traded_ company. It's pretty well regarded that Saudi Aramco will be in the $1.5 - $2 trillion range when/if it IPOs. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/05/saudi-crown-prince-says-aram...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#234

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

nathanaldensr wrote: post #187

pjmlp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First it needs to sort out its history of not being compatible with all .NET Framework libraries.

This has already happened. You're simply spreading FUD. Nearly all the major libraries .NET Framework developers have had access to since 2002 are now available as .NET Standard libraries. .NET Standard is the compatibility[1] you talk about, but seem to know nothing about. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/net-standar...

Then try WCF, ODP.NET (the full version), or plenty of third parties libraries, specially commercial components.

.NET Framework is stuck at .NET Standard 2.0.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#235

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #121

pjmlp wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First it needs to sort out its history of not being compatible with all .NET Framework libraries.

The world is moving on from .Net Framework - including Microsoft. .Net Framework is definitely the new COBOL. It’s basically in maintenance mode. Any company would be crazy to start a new greenfield project using .Net Framework and should have some type of plan to move to Core. https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-key... The presenters said it will still be released with Windows, as it's a compone…

I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev.

That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#236

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #200

coldtea wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. 1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s. Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages. As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-…

The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”? In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone sa…

Good luck running C# on the 100% OSes and hardware that runs Java

VS97 better than Eclipse, without additional plugins?

Alternative universe.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#237

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #205

stickfigure wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that we're watching the javascript ecosystem slowly fumble its way through reinventing the technologies of the past, I'd say 1994 is pretty damn relevant. Types. Clumsy stand-ins for synchronous behavior like async/await. Transaction managers. Threads. I'd add immutability and functional programming but really that's rediscovering technology from the midcentury. We really are doomed to repeat history.

There is the little language called C# that’s been around for a minute.

It has such a wonderful cross-platform GUI.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#238

Post by smarterclayton » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:19 PM UTC

stephenhuey wrote: post #216

StevePerkins wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, people. K8s is a container orchestration system. Yes, it's written in Go, like Docker itself. DevOps tooling is a niche area where Go has been very successful. But k8s runs whatever you put into your Docker containers. I've seen no indication of it changing which languages people choose to containerize (Node containers probably being way more common than Go ones). If anything, easy containerization negates…

Exactly! In the enterprise world, there is a lot of Java and .NET code that isn’t going away for a while especially since K8s makes it easier to port to the cloud. In my enterprise, the only other language that comes close in usage numbers is Python, so I think a lot of enterprise folks will opt for that over Go.

As someone who works on Kubernetes in the enterprise I would agree - there’s lots of go, but it’s newer and organized around the teams who were early adopters. And even the early adopters have massive Java, .NET, and increasingly Node footprints.

However I think the rule of enterprise software is that it’s increasingly fragmented and diverse - that’s partially why Kubernetes and containers were so attractive because it allows operations to unify footprint on prem and have a path to cloud.

Nobody in an enterprise ever stopped using a piece of technology. It lives on forever (and public cloud just gives it new places to live).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#239

Post by thomasz » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #83

fmhul wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit disagrees. And they weren't using 3, which is even slower.

By using Python they were able to ship, which is why you have heard of Reddit and they were able to grow enough to have a concurrency problem (something Python still sucks at); the number of sites of any significance that started by using Java for page delivery is probably somewhere around 0.

Reddit was written in lisp, they switched to python only after having initial success.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#240

Post by aphexairlines » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:26 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #90

dtech wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notice how I separately addressed JVM and Java. Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. JVM is in a stronger position than Java, but imagine a world were 15-10 years ago native compilation for JVM bytecode became available instead of 1 year ago. LLVM wouldn't have stood a chance. Kotlin and Scala (I'm not too familiar with Clojure and others) are hedging their bets and making JS/Webassembly a…

JVM native compilation exists since 2000 for anyone willing to pay for it.

Do you mean with Excelsior JET? I tried to compile an application totaling 157MB in jars to native with it just now. After compiling for 2 hours it was still only 15% done. I had aggressive optimizations disabled.