You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping • Hacker News Board

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#231

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #223

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

I'm not sure that's a relevant point to make in the context of this article, because there's widespread disagreement (leaning toward "no") on whether tipping for that muffin is required in the sense that a tip for dining-with-table-service is. A guaranteed 20% for a coffee shop muffin at the counter is definitely not expected. Or were you just intending a pre-emptive general critique of the three people who might use…

You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying you would be; I'm saying, that's one conundrum I like never having on my mind.

(20% on a muffin is like 80 cents, by the way).

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#232

Post by pbiggar » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #173

pbiggar wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That's simply not my problem" That's an unfortunate attitude. I thought a lot like you, but when I realized the wage disparity here - I could afford to go eat at these fancy places, which my servers definitely could not - I chose to make it my problem. Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should.

> Other people's problems are not yours, but if you can choose to help (for example, if you can afford to help), you should. The problem with this is that by tipping you simply move the problem of underpaid waiters to the next customer and to the next day. If everyone just stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices, everybody would be paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to exist. The p…

> If everyone just stopped tipping, the tips would be included in the prices, everybody would be paying taxes, and the tipping issue would just cease to exist.

That is not my understanding of how the world works.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#233

Post by addicted » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

In the US "tip" is a misnomer. Minimum wages for jobs where you can be tipped drop from $8 or so otherwise to something like $2.

It's not a "tip". It's an expected (and the expectation is in law, as evidenced by the lower minimum wage) part of the employee's salary.

This is a really bad system, (as David MItchell would say, it's a tax on conscience), but it's the system the US has. It's very different from almost all of the rest of the world where a tip really is a tip intended to reward good service.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#234

Post by EpicEng » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:16 PM UTC

whorleater wrote: post #166

EpicEng wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers have to make up the difference if tips don't get them there though. No one should be making less than min. The issue is that min wage isn't really enough.

"Employers make up to min wage if you don't get tipped enough" is the biggest joke, because if you don't get enough tips by the end of the night a few times, employers will often slowly push you out by only offering you unfavorable shifts, or outright fire you in states with poor labor protections.

>employers will often slowly push you out by only offering you unfavorable shifts, or outright fire you in states with poor labor protections.

In other words; if you're bad at your job, you probably won't have it for very long. Yeah, well no crap.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#235

Post by miketery » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

I've been struggling with this for a while and you put it really well.

However it frustrates me to no end, that customers are expected to do compensation sharing with the employer. The nefarious thing about this is that the employer has put the negotiating for fair wages between the customer and employees instead of between the employees and the employer.

End of the day its manageable as you say, just price in the tip - however I prefer places that have it priced in (same goes for tax).

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#236

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

addicted wrote: post #233

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

In the US "tip" is a misnomer. Minimum wages for jobs where you can be tipped drop from $8 or so otherwise to something like $2. It's not a "tip". It's an expected (and the expectation is in law, as evidenced by the lower minimum wage) part of the employee's salary. This is a really bad system, (as David MItchell would say, it's a tax on conscience), but it's the system the US has. It's very different from almost all…

That's true in restaurants but not as much in the context of the article.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#237

Post by zackmorris » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

bhhaskin wrote: post #196

zackmorris wrote: post #26

After losing my keister in the housing bubble I made a deal with myself to never use credit again and to always tip at least 20% to make the world a better place. Pretty much all non-salary jobs are underpaid now by a factor of 2-4 so tips can add up to more than a paycheck. I also like to think that it makes up for the people who undertip or don't tip at all. Edit: I now have one $2000 expense card that I pay off ea…

But what if tipping is a big part of the reason people are underpaid? What if by tipping you are just moving the issue along.

I think this is most likely a fallacy. A positive action by me to increase wages shouldn't be blamed for the negative actions of others (mostly business owners) to suppress wages.

I could see taking responsibility though for not choosing to eat at more expensive restaurants that generally pay their staff better.

Probably what it comes down to is that restaurants are entertainment so aren't needed by society the way that grocery stores are. Then again, so is just about everything else in our economy. 10% of our labor could supply all our basic needs, the rest is just wasted keeping up with the Joneses. What I'm saying is that there may be no free market solution to the service industry being underpaid, which is why I support a $15 minimum wage and universal basic income, among other things.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#238

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

i88y6 wrote: post #186

siruncledrew wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping on a digital device (iPad register) also doesn't make sense because the tip money is going straight to the bank account the owner connected to the point of sale software.

That was the first thing I asked the barista once I became a regular and tipped Them: do you actually get these tips? She reassured me they did. What bothers me is the ACH networks still get their cut of the tip (assuming they get a percentage of sale and not a flat rate). No visa, you don't need 5% of the waitress hard work.

You could choose to ditch the credit cards and just go cash only. Of course, you'd have to deal with your customers spending significantly less money. Plus you'd have to deal with the extra security costs of collecting, storing, and moving that money to the bank.

The reason that vendors accept credit cards is because it's usually worth the additional costs. If you don't think your credit card processor is worth the cost, try dropping them and seeing how it affects your sales. In some instances, vendors have dropped processors entirely (like Amex and Discover) without noticeably impacting their bottom line.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#239

Post by pbiggar » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

nashashmi wrote: post #193

pbiggar wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some advice from a less recent immigrant: tip everywhere. It's much simpler than figuring out the rules, esp (as the existence of the article points out) the rules change. The old 15% became 20%. The places you used to tip (solely personal service situations like a waiter or hairdresser) became everywhere. If it was done right, everyone would be paid well, there would be no tips, and your stuff would just cost 20% mo…

You are the reason why everyone and their mother has a tipping jar!

I personally think it's because employers choose to lower wages and prices, and externalize it to their customers. Also, the government chooses to set low minimum wage boundaries. If people did not need tips, I doubt we would see tip jars everywhere.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#240

Post by jasode » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> US tipping is not complicated. [...] just always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line.

Well, it's been too complicated for me because the comments in this thread show I've been doing it wrong.

For example, I sometimes picked up "to go" orders from Chili's restaurant[1]. In my mind, if I sat down to eat, I tipped the server. On the other hand, if I phoned in an order and picked it up, I didn't tip. Yes, I noticed that for pickup orders, the credit-card slip had an extra line to write in a "tip" but I just ignored it because my programming brain just assumed that tipping line is printed by the point-of-sale software regardless of sit down or take out service. (The POS programmer didn't bother to code the conditional IF(ORDER_TYPE==DINE_IN) PRINT "tip: ___")

A few decades ago when I worked in a restaurant and manned the cash register for take out orders, I did not expect tips when handing a customer a bag of food. That is the experience and decision tree I used when I myself became a customer for pick up orders. Therefore, the logical tip amount for takeout orders was $0.00.

However, this thread says I've been "stiffing" workers. I think times have changed!

EDIT ADD: The replies that further refined this specific restaurant example and I appreciate that but that's not really what I was trying to discuss. Let me try state my conundrum another way: I was exploring the generalized philosophical point about where the genesis of a particular tipping expectation comes from. The question is... do _new_ valid tipping scenarios legitimately come from software programmers modifying point-of-sale software to add a line that says "TIP:____"?

To make up an example, today when we go to get eyeglasses, the optician (or salesperson) will help pick out different frames, adjust and bend the frame for fit, clean it with a cloth, etc. Basically a bunch of "service" type of actions for the customer. Today, we do not tip this worker. However, if the POS software at Pearle Vision or Eyemasters starts printing out "TIP:___" on the credit-card receipts, does this, in itself, begin a new social more that compels us tip opticians? Would we then be debating in 5 years that we're "stiffing" opticians if we don't tip them even if some of us grew up without ever tipping opticians? Those are genuine questions and I don't know the answer.

I didn't tip the takeout cashier because I thought life experience with proper tipping etiquette was the proper guide and therefore, it's not dictated by the "TIP:___" text on a credit-card receipt. Many in this thread say that's wrong so I to re-evaluate this.

[1] https://www.chilis.com/