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John McCain has died

nytimes.com

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Re: John McCain has died

#231

Post by scarface74 »

burfog wrote: post #224
scarface74 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two types of Republicans. There are the standard pro military, pro business, pro sensible immigration, pro trade conservatives. Those are the type that usual rise to prominence nationally. But then you have the Southern Republicans who use to be Democrats before the Civil Rights Era in the 60s - the Confederate Flag waving, “Moral Majority”, hate immigrants, anti-trade populists, who see the world changing…

You've been lied to. Count the party switchers in that time period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Represen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Senators... It's just 2, Strom Thurmond in the senate and Albert Watson in the house. If the "party switch" narrative were correct, you'd expect many more. What is going on here is that nobody wants to own the history of the KKK or voti…

Not the politicians - the electorate. If you think voting against civil rights makes a politician “unelectable” in the South....you haven’t lived in the South.

Re: John McCain has died

#232

Post by mnm1 »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #228
mnm1 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He voted for the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and against the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008. At best his record on torture is mixed and clearly despite all his talk against torture and even his sponsoring of one anti torture amendment (McCain Detainee Amendment to the Defense Appropriations bill for 2005) he still supported it later in his career. Those are facts. You haven't provided a sing…

"There's nothing respectable or heroic about any war." -mnm1 Yet, you are okay with WII? Which is it? Are the those that fought in a war you agree with not Heroic? As to the 2nd Iraq war - A large number of good people were mislead by President G.W.Bush. There is no proof that Senator McCain had any knowledge beyond the reset of the members of the Senate. Furthermore I would argue that having fought in a war, having…

There's nothing respectable or heroic about WWII either. I did not imply that there was. It was, for the US, a war of self defense and that's the only justification I can accept for war. It doesn't make heroes out of the people that fought it either, however. It was just as dark and horrible an event for the allies as it was for the axis. Both sides were dragged down into the ugliest pit of human existence possible. Unfortunately, it only takes one side to drag every other side down into such a dark abyss and turn men into savages. It's horrible that this ever happens; it's even more horrible when it's your own country dragging down everyone else into this dark abyss by starting wars. The worst is when men like McCain lead us into this abyss without logic or reason. Why were we in Iraq when it was Saudis trained in Afghanistan that attacked us? Just because they are Arabs with darker skin and a different religion. That's not much different than the insane reasons Hitler had for starting his war. It's despicable and unforgivable in both cases.

Re: John McCain has died

#233

Post by itbeho »

arcticbull wrote: post #178
LanceH wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I maintain this was a major reason for Bush defeating Kerry. I saw news stories on both of them one night and they were both in jeans. Kerry looked like they were purchased so he could dress down as the people do. The jeans looked like they had never been worn, maybe a dress shirt tucked in. Bush on the other hand was at Camp David casually talking to the press outdoors while his dog happily circled him. It's not rea…

This is a genuine question, I'm not leading here. Do you think this has to do with anti-intellectualism, jealousy or is there more at play here? I wouldn't want an average joe to run the country, I want someone truly extraordinary. Better suited to the role, more experienced, smarter, better dressed and showing it. I don't want the stereotypical truck stop waiter/waitress, you know? It's not fair as they may be just…

I appreciate the honesty of your question. I think you probably miss a lot of nuance about what it's like to be a middle-of-the-road person. As someone from a lower middle class background and being of mixed race I can probably give you a few hundred answers for what's wrong with being 'elite' in the political sphere, but I'll leave at this to think about: Which political party has painted itself into a corner of perceived 'elitism' the last election cycle?

The 'elites' underestimate the middle-of-the-road at their political peril.

Re: John McCain has died

#234

Post by zoomablemind »

qubax wrote: post #222
tzs wrote: post #37

The comment section on the story about this on Foxnew.com [1] is eye-opening. At the moment it is about 1/3 celebrating his death and complaining that he was really a RINO or closet liberal, 1/3 not commenting on his death but complaining about the RINO/closet liberal stuff, and 1/3 expressing sorrow at his death. [1] http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/25/john-mccain-dead-... Addendum: the comments section seems…

That's not surprising considering McCain wasn't much like by many people. You are forgetting that the Bush republicans hated mccain and one of the most toxic republican campaigns was in 2000 between Bush and McCain. The 2000 toxicity was superceded by the 2008 Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin election. Now that was a vicious campaign. McCain and Palin was attacked mercilessly by the media, the democrats, social media and…

Listing Palin on the ballot did an unjust disservice to McCain's campaign chances.

It was easy to understand why she was picked, yet it turned the whole run into a farce and diluted his message. A meaningful lady VP (maybe Condoleezza Rice) would've won it for him. It seemed they positioned for that, but calculations probaly didn't support. It would've needed a different Republican party.

Great man passed.

Re: John McCain has died

#235

Post by ericd »

Jach wrote: post #230
tntn wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happened He died, and most people tend to talk only about good stuff out of respect immediately afterward. You don't see people getting up and criticizing the deceased at funerals.

If you didn't respect the person when they were alive, it makes no sense to respect them when they die. A lot of people are happy he's gone. Funerals are only typically attended by people who personally care, so of course you won't hear criticism there; this forum is not a funeral.

Many Democrats who voted against him and disagreed with his policies still respected him as a person. I count myself among them. It's sad that people let their political tribalism get so intense that they're happy that their opponent is dead.

Re: John McCain has died

#236

Post by ericd »

Jach wrote: post #166
ericd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that's pretty obviously a joke, even with no context. It's a riff on the lyrics to a Beach Boys song.

McCain himself points that out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg I remember him for that one but also for advocating the permanent military presence, like South Korea, going forward in Iraq. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf7HYoh9YMM I'm somewhat surprised that HN seems to have such a hardon for the man, and every negative comment is being downvoted / flagged. I remember pretty clearly how Obama-obsessed…

I would hope that most HNers don't get their political views from Family Guy, so I don't see what that's evidence of.

Re: John McCain has died

#237

Post by burfog »

scarface74 wrote: post #231
burfog wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've been lied to. Count the party switchers in that time period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Represen... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Senators... It's just 2, Strom Thurmond in the senate and Albert Watson in the house. If the "party switch" narrative were correct, you'd expect many more. What is going on here is that nobody wants to own the history of the KKK or voti…

Not the politicians - the electorate. If you think voting against civil rights makes a politician “unelectable” in the South....you haven’t lived in the South.

Let's see how that holds up:

Prior to the supposed switch, democrat politicians voted against civil rights laws and even filibustered them. They were also KKK. Republican politicians were trying to pass civil rights legislation. The electorate for democrats presumably liked democrats (else why vote that way?) and the same for the electorate for republicans.

So you say it wasn't the politicians that switched, but the electorate. OK, so now people on both sides suddenly change their views... say what? That would be like a 2020 election with all the Hillary voters choosing Trump and all of Trump's original supporters picking Robert Mueller.

Want to make it that the politicians switch views but stay in their party, while the voters switch views and/or party affiliation? Aw, come on... this is completely implausible. Suddenly the republican politicians all become racist, and suddenly the democrat politicians all decide they like civil rights? What could possibly make that unproven event happen, and why would only 2 members of congress resist going along with it?

None of that is believable at all. This whole thing is just marketing.

I have in fact lived in the South, and anybody running for congress WILL LOSE if they take a position against civil rights. When your political party has a history seeped in this unelectable position, you'll do anything to evade it, including dishonestly claiming the other party somehow inherited your past.

Re: John McCain has died

#238

Post by myrandomcomment »

mnm1 wrote: post #232
myrandomcomment wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There's nothing respectable or heroic about any war." -mnm1 Yet, you are okay with WII? Which is it? Are the those that fought in a war you agree with not Heroic? As to the 2nd Iraq war - A large number of good people were mislead by President G.W.Bush. There is no proof that Senator McCain had any knowledge beyond the reset of the members of the Senate. Furthermore I would argue that having fought in a war, having…

There's nothing respectable or heroic about WWII either. I did not imply that there was. It was, for the US, a war of self defense and that's the only justification I can accept for war. It doesn't make heroes out of the people that fought it either, however. It was just as dark and horrible an event for the allies as it was for the axis. Both sides were dragged down into the ugliest pit of human existence possible.…

The fact that you see the brave men that ran out of the landing craft on Normandy into a hail of machine gun fire as unheroic just...sorry, we have nothing more to talk about.

Re: John McCain has died

#239

Post by baxtr »

jabl wrote: post #195
war1025 wrote: post #127

My dad died from the same cancer about a year before McCain was diagnosed. Terrible, terrible thing to go through. I feel bad writing it out, but it gives me a bit of comfort to know it isn't something that could have been managed with the added resources of someone on the national stage like McCain. The first surgery is pretty amazing because they can get almost all of the cancer out, and all the weird behavior just…

Lost my mother to the same. Doctors gave her a year, but in the end she died less than 5 months from the diagnosis. She was 62.

I had a similar experience. My mum had cancer, they gave her “good 7-10” years, she died after 3. I don’t get why they not say instead: “we don’t know. Say everything you want to say, do everything you want to do. Quickly. Be greateful for every (additional) day.”

Re: John McCain has died

#240

Post by fastball »

selectodude wrote: post #162
fastball wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And? That's the entire point of checks and balances.

That isn't checks and balances. That's partisan bullshit.

His reason was not "because you're a democrat", so I'm not sure how you can make that claim.
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