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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#231

Post by mywittyname »

Svip wrote: post #98
olex wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

Diesel isn't that cost efficient actually, even if you drive a lot. Diesel are more expensive to maintain due to regulations, plus diesel cars tend to be more expensive their petrol counterparts. Moreover, there is depreciation, which tend to be worse for diesel cars, because they are valued less on the second hand market (fairly or unfairly). On average, you should expect to drive at least 150.000+ km before you've…

The premium of diesel engines over petrol is one of the key reasons that we don't get many in the USA (the other issue being emissions). Bob Lutz, former GM CEO, was a big proponent of diesel but repeatedly acknowledged that it doesn't make sense in the USA. The market for people willing to pay the $5,000 premium (in 2007 dollars, mind you) was very small. Americans don't appreciate just how cheap cars in their region are.

GM did manage to get a diesel Cruze into the USDM market, and keep it here, but it's low-margin and not a huge seller. A manual diesel Cruze starts at about $25,000 (compared to $17,000 for the base). So it is basically slotted as an "enthusiast" model, just not a high-performance one like Ford and Honda would offer.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#232

Post by zaroth »

tobltobs wrote: post #220
zaroth wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a ___ who never owned ____ I would love to see ____ completely banned. I guess I sometimes feel this way about some things, but then pretty quickly get over it and realize that other people have different utility functions than me, and that I kinda like this whole life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness thing. I much rather take the approach that externalities be accounted for properly than to ban anything tha…

You seriously believe those $2.50/gal peanuts do account for the whole cost and damage you create with your lazy lifestyle?

What a bizarre rebuttal to see on HN. But I’ll respond despite the poor tone.

I took a guess of $2.50 per gallon in total net externality. Turns out after a bit of Googling a study out of Harvard University [1] put the number at $2.10. So, yeah I do believe it, seriously!

By the way, those $2.50 peanuts would add up to $360 billion per year in the US.

I don’t have a problem with a gas tax that tries to fully cover the externalities of driving, as long as the money is earmarked to actually try to offset the cost.

[1] - https://sites.hks.harvard.edu/m-rcbg/heep/ee-workshop_131024...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#233

Post by pelasaco »

tyu100 wrote: post #58
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

I was in Spain last year for several weeks and it was so depressing how every town viewed at altitude was covered in a pervasive pea soup of diesel smog. The link between German industrial policy/protectionism and environmental disasters like diesel has been known for a while now but European cities in particular will be paying the price for a long time.

I can imagine how depressed you were. Depressed, I'm here in Germany. brrr

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#234

Post by bluedino »

olex wrote: post #32
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

It's an illusion that diesel vehicles are faster than gasoline. Gasoline engines have way more horsepower and are faster that the diesel options (unless Germans are getting neutered or smaller power plants than say, the USA)

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#235

Post by mywittyname »

MasterPI wrote: post #39
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> they smell And petrol cars don't smell? > slow to accelerate I think you've never driven a big modern engine diesel car. I have driven this BMW 535d[0] and believe me this monster is not "slow" in any way (0-100km/h in 5.5 seconds). It accelerates faster than the petrol equivalent because of the more torque it produces. [0] http://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/2011/1337945/bmw_535d....

Sure, a big engine diesel is quick, but small-engine ones are slow. The lack of top-end power makes them suffer at highway-speed passing. The diesel Cruze, for example, has a 5% (4mph) lower trap speed at the end of the quarter mile over its gas sibling (with the same 0-60).

Also consider that 3.0L I6 diesel has the same 0-60 as a 2.0L turbo four-cylinder Honda Accord, but a huge reduction in highway acceleration (traps 98mph vs. 103mph in the Accord).

[0]https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-cruze-ha...

[1]https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/cruze

[2] https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-honda-accord-20t-a...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#236

Post by usrusr »

Xylakant wrote: post #63
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Diesel fuel is taxed lower primarily because it’s historically been the fuel for trucks. Using Diesel engines in cars is a comparatively new development.

“Taxing the fuel used by companies is hurting the economy more than taxing the fuel used by personal cars". It's exactly the same reasoning/lobbying outcome that was behind the American (and now historic, I think?) tax advantage of light trucks over sedans. Both then lead to comparable, and in different ways unecological adaptations: diesels in Europe, F-150s stateside.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#237

Post by mywittyname »

teamhappy wrote: post #37
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? I wouldn't assume that there's a direct relationship between diesel engines still being around and diesel engines still having an advantage over others. Not having to replace your fleet of trucks, buses, trains or whatever is a big enough advantage for most companies. Also, importing energy from other countries isn't a sign of poor energy producti…

This x1000.

To add a bit, it should also be noted that many of the reliability issues that passenger diesels have are related to emissions equipment. Industrial diesels engines are not required to have all the fickle equipment, so they are generally much more reliable.

So buses and trains have significantly longer service lives and lower operating costs than passenger diesels do. Turns out, diesel engines are wonderful when you don't care about emissions.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#238

Post by stefan_ »

Xylakant wrote: post #63
yostrovs wrote: post #19

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investm…

Diesel fuel is taxed lower primarily because it’s historically been the fuel for trucks. Using Diesel engines in cars is a comparatively new development.

And why would anyone want to subsidize fossil fuel road transport when we have electric trains?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#239

Post by mywittyname »

jk563 wrote: post #71
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #44

I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP. My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions) But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies…

I could be wrong, but I would guess that your quandary isn't to do with the policy as such, but the way it's been gamed by car manufacturers. That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones. Get a petrol car pay the tax would be my recommendation. Depends on what you need too. My 5-year-old petrol Fiesta was <£10k and is £0 road ta…

> That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones.

Is NOx a consideration for road taxes? If not, that's the issue. Diesels do emit less CO2 than gasoline and AFAIK, no auto companies were "cheating" CO2 emissions, just NOx.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#240

Post by NutriSugar »

rmetzler wrote: post #178
jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city. This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law. I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I b…

>I don't understand why my health should be at risk for something I don't produce.

A modern society requires some amount of pollution to function. This has been reduced, and we should work to continue to reduce it, but generating/storing/transporting energy (as well as many other activities) generate some pollution. Some of it we directly benefit from (powering our homes, getting food on our tables), but others are indirect (pollution to produce/transport medical equipment when we aren't the ones using it). Given this, one can think of it as a tax on your health for the benefit of society.

Of course there are issues with ensuring people pay their fair share, that people aren't over burdened with the taxation, and that the revenue is being efficiently utilized.

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