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Shanghai sets population at 25M

theguardian.com

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Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#231

Post by Cookingboy »

Markoff wrote: post #207
Cookingboy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true, China does not want to move people into major cities, that's why they have the "Hukou" system, which is a residency registration. What they want is urbanization of the less developed areas, many of which were farmlands from before.

yeah, that's why they plan to give pretty much half of the migrant workers urban hukou https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/chinas-plan-for-orderly-huko...

That's how the Hukou system works, there are two tiers: Farm/Country and Urban, and they want to urbanize farmlands, which will upgrade existing farmland hukou to city ones.

They are not talking about moving farmers into existing cities.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#232

Post by Iv »

We need population targets for the world and for countries as well. Once the population stabilizes, growths in productivity will go toward comfort improvement instead of survival of an ever growing population.

I can't wait for it.

There are almost twice more people on the world now than when I was born. This is crazy.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#233

Post by peteretep »

igravious wrote: post #154
peteretep wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still the same as it was in 1939 though... And if you compare it with any Chinese city, London's slow re-population looks exceptionally sluggish.

Where are the people going to come from? UK is already 83% urbanized: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.URB.TOTL.IN.ZS?year_... Not many rurals gonna migrate to the big smoke and as you can tell from Brexit the Brits ain't too keen any more on inwards migration. Let's not forget that from ~1825 to ~1925 London was the largest city in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_through...

> Where are the people going to come from?

The rest of Europe.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#234

Post by rajacombinator »

agoodthrowaway wrote: post #213
sampo wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are places in mumbai too w/ astonishing market values and disgusting living conditions Also in San Francisco

We have bad conditions for sure in San Francisco and poverty elsewhere in the US that all Americans should be ashamed of. Frankly the state of poverty in America is unacceptable. But the poverty we have is nowhere near the scale and absolute horror of Mumbai slums. I've traveled extensively through South America and seen horrific conditions there but nothing was as shocking as Mumbai slums. I find posts like yours ar…

Having traveled extensively as well I agree nothing compares with the slums of Mumbai. But the bad areas in America carry an extra connotation of crime and drug use that poor areas elsewhere may not. I didn’t spend any time in the slums of Mumbai, only observed from afar, but I suspect I’d feel safer walking around them than the bad parts of SF, LA, Baltimore, Detroit, etc ...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#235

Post by rajacombinator »

baybal2 wrote: post #116
ttflee wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the migrant workers were exploited by local residents and employers, they were still better-off than they could gain in their rural home. I worked in Beijing for more than three years without registering any residential permit, renting a shabby apartment, which is built and owned by the locals, in the village to the north of the city area. Such apartments were cheap compared with the roaring rental and estate…

>It is not even the fault of the Beijing local residents be to blame for the tragedy today. The cream of economy development was either intentionally or unintentionally hoarded in the metropolises while the second tiers cities never get the chance. People have to migrate and follow the money. Here is my observation based on my experience as a person who was frequently visiting Shenzhen over the last 10 years. Shenzhe…

Have you traveled to other places than Shenzhen? There are large parts of the world where motorcycle taxis and street food are not considered “undesirable” - quite the opposite. It boggles my mind that you could applaud their disappearance...

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#236

Post by EliRivers »

mstaoru wrote: post #220
gaadd33 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did China get rid of the hukou system? Otherwise wouldn't people still need documents to go and stay in their capital? You should update the wikipedia page if it's been repealed everywhere, the current page just says that small cities have had restrictions abolished but large cities are still under tight control.

Most foreign people tend to overestimate the impact of hukou on normal daily life. You don't need it for anything, except things like getting your kids into free public school. You can totally go to another city, find a job, rent a room and work, save money, get a mortgage, buy an apartment, marry, have kids, put them in a paid public school and generally live your life.

Are you still at risk from it? If a policeman (or powerful person able to tell the police what to do) decided he was sick of you, could he simply run you out of town (back to where you came from)?

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#237

Post by jakubp »

nawitus wrote: post #112
jakubp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people already in that city can't vote with their wallets to stop the immigration.

They can vote by moving to another place?

Maybe. But that would mean people with lower standards replace people with higher standards. I don't think it's the right direction.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#238

Post by closeparen »

ghettoimp wrote: post #186
dreamdu5t wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the solutions chosen to make cities a better place, closed borders and immigration quotas are descrimination. People should be treated equally.

Why should all people be treated equally? Shouldn't a community have a right to set its own goals and standards? Shouldn't it have a right to decide how to balance the needs of its own people with the needs of its neighbors? Anecdotally, tens of thousands of people have been moving to my city every year for over a decade. The rents have increased dramatically, forcing many out of their homes. Traffic is horrible. A f…

In the US, at least, we are Constitutionally entitled to the equal protection of the law. So no, communities don’t get to make laws that explicitly privilege their own residents.

That’s why the Bay Area operates through proxies like building permits and rent control - explicit immigration restrictions are a violation of citizens’ rights and would be easily smacked down in court.

It doesn’t matter how convenient it would be to control migration - if you want to do that, you need to secede. The American community has rights that supersede your neighborhood’s.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#239

Post by mstaoru »

EliRivers wrote: post #236
mstaoru wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most foreign people tend to overestimate the impact of hukou on normal daily life. You don't need it for anything, except things like getting your kids into free public school. You can totally go to another city, find a job, rent a room and work, save money, get a mortgage, buy an apartment, marry, have kids, put them in a paid public school and generally live your life.

Are you still at risk from it? If a policeman (or powerful person able to tell the police what to do) decided he was sick of you, could he simply run you out of town (back to where you came from)?

Not that I know of. Mostly hukou is used to "limit", not to outright prevent. E.g. in Shanghai and Guangzhou people without a local hukou cannot buy more than one apartment. It's much harder for people without hukou to get Shanghai car plates (that by themselves cost around ¥100k ~ $15,000 these days) that will allow taking numerous elevated roads during peak hours.

Re: Shanghai sets population at 25M

#240

Post by vkou »

ihsw2 wrote: post #102
vkou wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

England was barely affected by the first World War. France, Germany, Austria, Serbia, the Ottoman Empire, and Russia bore the brunt of the fighting. And compared to the other belligerents, it was barely affected by the second, too. British colonial policies during the war killed more of their own subjects in India, then the Germans ever did on the home isles. (For anyone wondering why India sought independence... Wel…

The British economy nosedived into total exhaustion of resources, with resource rationing extending to 1956. It was closely intertwined with the French economy for a century before WW2 and its assets were wholly seized/decimated. If WW2 went on for much longer then the UK would have descended into universal abject poverty and total societal collapse. Granted this universal suffering of the populace ushered in the soc…

Most rationing in the UK ended in 1950.

That total exhaustion of resources happened due to decolonization, and taking on much debt (Much of which was inflated away over the next decade.) As it turned out, the resource shortages didn't matter, either, due to free trade. 1945 to 1960 had the highest rate of economic growth that the UK has ever experienced.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_the_United...

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