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Freelancer.com has ruined my life

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Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#231
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geographic location is a rather arbitrary criteria for wage discrimination especially doing remote work [1]. I would not call the opportunity to be exploited a benefit exactly, even though I admit the alternatives can be worse. [1] https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

There is nothing arbitrary about it - different geographical regions have different living costs and different market rates. I've worked with many Indian devs over the past 10 years or so, and have become good friends with a few. One of those is freelancing for US and EU clients - he is earning far more than he would be paid by a local company, and gets to choose which jobs he takes on, as well as his working hours.…

Do you think the prices offered on freelancing sites are fair? Would you be willing to work for such prices? Why do you think freelancing is considered a race to the bottom?

Why do you care which ISP someone uses when committing to a repository or login to VM?

On the other end of things, would I move to a more expensive neighborhood if that meant I will get a bigger salary? While I don't know about you or your friend, my answer would be yes please.

Fair is when equal work is equally compensated. When you earn significantly less than others in roughly the same position you are being exploited and it does not matter whether you can make ends meet.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#232
post #73

Stay away from Freelancer.com They reversed two milestone payments i had received, becasue they had to suspend the buyer's account due to some issues with the buyer's payment method. Note that this is after completing the project fully and leaving feedback for each other. I left the money on my Freelancer account, becasue they are/were having issues with Skrill withdrawals. It was there for about a month and they sud…

I think Upwork is a little more protective in that aspect. You can clearly see from the beginning whether the client has a verified payment method.

UpWork is completely biased towards their work force. They treat freelancers like shit and the client is always right. The rating system makes it impossible to have any benefit from conflict resolution.

Then again some of the people hiring there are really professional.

I was scammed by some guy who gave me a 1 star for overworking me and exploiting me, in spite of showing evidence that his work was completed (and much more) his rating was not even exempted from my total.

Suffice to say it makes it hard to work. Luckily it was my 6th job and I had other 5 stars.....

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#233
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't find Upwork's contract without signing up, but before Elance merged with oDesk to become Upwork they had pretty onerous terms in their services agreement⁰: 9.Indemnification Contractor will defend, indemnify, and hold harmless Client against any damage, cost, loss or expense arising from a claim, suit or proceeding brought against Client (i) alleging that any Work Product infringes upon any Intellectual Prop…

Not a lawyer, but I think you're correct. I wouldn't sign this. (iii) puts the burden on the client to prove that you breached the contract. So, that clause is reasonable even if it is burdensome. For, (i) and (ii) the word "alleging" is problematic for me. Anyone can sue you alleging anything. Yes, you can recover court costs and lawyer fees if you win, but most patent trolls try to out-expense you and figure you'll…

Thanks for this domain, very helpful.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#235
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

considering the living costs in the respective countries Trying to shift the blame to the market is still discrimination in my book.

Market rates seem very relevant to me. People with the same skills but living in different geographical regions are of course willing to work for differing amounts.

Indeed they are, but it has very little to do with fairness.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#236
post #82

Well, first let me say that my experience as someone who has hired on freelancer has been very good. I have found some excellent developers there. But I'll also point out that (1) I spec my projects pretty carefully, almost to the point of 'hell I might as well build it myself'; and (2) I pay. And when the project is harder than I originally thought, I don't say "tough shit you signed a contract dumbass" but rather I…

yes, it seems entirely likely that freelancer.com is awful and online marketplaces withholding payments for nebulous reasons is a real problem, but i have a hard time trusting this review. Specifically, this:

"The first time I asked for the reason I was told that there's no reason and that I should keep working, then I was told that because a client complained, and in another occasion, i was told something else that I can't quite remember"

Freelancer.com is "ruining your life", but when they explain their reasoning to you, you "can't remember". I call bullshit. In the scenario the author of this review is trying to paint, you don't just forget the rationale they give you.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#237
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what universe is marketing and sales not a key element of a business? That's like saying Samsung doesn't have to put effort into marketing and sales just because it's important for Apple. Sales and marketing IS a universal truth in business. Try telling shareholders/stakeholders that it's not. That a business sells software is irrelevant. That a business is run by one person is irrelevant. Outsourcing your marketi…

(First, you should know I'm playing devil's advocate. I run a startup, and of course I agree with you about sales and marketing. See [1] for my thoughts on this) > That a business is run by one person is irrelevant. I disagree with you here. In your system, there is a binary designation for individuals: either you are an individual employee, you have given up a large part of your freedom in exchange for the security…

ETA: I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. Thank you.

I think I had my lightbulb moment. People are comparing services like Upwork to a typical contracting arrangement in the U.S.

Amazon hires contract workers for their warehouses and perhaps they do this directly. Many other companies hire contracters through temp agencies.

Imagine walking through the door of Upwork as if it were some sort of temp agency. Imagine you meet with a rep who interviews you and goes over how the temp agency works, but it's actually the Upwork or Freelancer terms.

You would likely tell the rep that he/she is ing nuts and walk out the door. I can't imagine there are temp agencies which work like that. The closest I can think of is day labor, but I'm pretty sure those workers don't have to worry about getting paid at the end of their work day.

I guess I couldn't get this through my head because of how horrible of an idea it would be to me. On the other hand, I think playing slot machines is incredibly stupid, yet people love to do it.

People have a bit of a responsibility to understand the model of what they are dealing with. There are endless ways to make money, but not endless ways in which you will get protection. If you work for an employer, you get looked after and you're likely to get paid. If you try to make money trading, then you're likely to get chewed up and spit out. If you try to join an MLM scheme, then you better know how these things work or you won't get anywhere.

The model of running a business is that you better run your life properly. You better have your adult pants ready to go. Freelance software developers have it easy, most of the solo devs just lose their time when they get screwed. Back before the internet, an entrepeneur might lose everything (like my parents did).

I think there is a reality warp which people go through when they think of freelance software development. It's way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot by going this route and there is little to stop you. It's as easy as walking into a casino and walking out completely cleaned out. Perhaps the government should insist that Upwork places a warning label on its site, like a pack of cigarettes. It should put pictures of homeless people, just as an added scare tactic. Because it's a really bad idea to sign up with a service like this if you don't fully know what you are getting into.

You're right that a business can go bankrupt with one key missed payment or withheld check. But that's exactly why you need to be fully aware and ready for that to happen. You need to know what you are getting yourself into. If it happens, you brush yourself off and figure out what to do next. You don't expose yourself as the reviewer did. You keep it professional because it's going right into your history folder.

You're not going to get screwed like that working for a top 3 temp agency in the space.

NOTE: The above assumes U.S. or similar.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#238
These types of platforms have one single function - to drive down the cost and quality of delivered software. I may end up inadvertently using a piece of software as a client of a company that cheaped out and purchased a deliverable from platforms like this and it will end up being a crap experience. If we had something like an engineering oath and certification that developers had to complete before they could work on any projects, we could make avoiding all these freelancer platforms part of that certification process. Would eventually kill these platforms off, and good riddance.

Re: Freelancer.com has ruined my life

#239
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So after you take down the number on that ice cream truck you saw driving by, and get back home from your walk and decide to call them, what do you say? Just, "hi! Do you need any software developed"? I've never tried, but it's a little hard for me to imagine ever getting a client this way.

I wouldn't go after the ice cream man, but here's a couple of people I would (and have) contacted: locksmiths, plumbers, lawn maintenance teams, roofing companies, solar panel companies and the list goes on and on. Then I would either talk to a worker directly if it looks like a decent opportunity. I'm not going to wave down a guy off the roof, but if he happens to be fiddling with something near his van and I natura…

Pretty much this. Lot's of people dont believe this approach works and miss out.
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