2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining? • Hacker News Board

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#231

Post by gehwartzen » Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 3:43 AM UTC

gizmo686 wrote: post #115

watwut wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why incentives mess test up? I would try harder on graded test, including preparation.

When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. The more you prepare specifically for a test, the harder it is to determine how much of your score is based on your general understanding of what is being tested, and how much is based on you exploiting the test.

But it seems humans only tend to acquire and demonstrate knowledge for some sort of self gain. These tests would then just tell you the general level of apathy of the students and do not tell you how much they know.

If I wanted to know how well the average person on the street can clean a toilet and my test involved asking a bunch of people for a demonstration without pay nor feedback of any kind I don't suspect I would find a lot of clean toilets. I would instead have learned that people don't like cleaning toilets and gained no insight into their ability to do so.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#232

Post by peterwwillis » Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 5:05 AM UTC

home_boi wrote: post #114

peterwwillis wrote: post #58

One of the reasons - probably one of the biggest reasons - for continuously lower test scores in America is the quality of the care these children receive. Over 40% of children in the US are born to unwed mothers, compared to 5% at the beginning of last century. About 70% of unwed childbirth is by black mothers, versus just 24% in 1965. The last two peaks of teenage pregnancy were 1991 and 2007 - so the children of t…

The most effective solution for this problem would be to encourage birth control and abortion for populations that are unfit to handle parenthood.

Then you'd have to convince conservatives to pay for birth control. It's a double whammy: increased taxes, and giving women agency over their bodies. They hate the idea. (Also it would be tantamount to eugenics, which is pretty much not something anyone would or should want to get political traction on, except maybe from the Alt Right)

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#233

Post by echaozh » Wed, Oct 11, 2017, 5:46 AM UTC

wfo wrote: post #157

npunt wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lack of incentive to do well is precisely the point of these tests, and they are designed with this context in mind. The testing regimen relies on the same level of apathy in both students and teachers being present year after year, which provides a nice baseline for statistical analysis/comparison. Incentives mess everything up. See also: NAEP [1] Source: worked in ed covering this subject, studied assessment in…

In my experience certain children (and adults) -- ones who live in successful, wealthy neighborhoods are completely terrified of the idea of failing, at anything. They will start weeping if they feel like they performed poorly on an exam. Any test, no matter how meaningless, determines their self-worth. I'd imagine these students do disproportionately fantastic on this test. At this point it's culture/personality tes…

And that's perhaps why they, or at least their family became successful and/or wealthy in the first place?

If you don't even want to be successful and/or wealthy, and you don't try, your chance of becoming so is definitely much lower.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#234

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Oct 12, 2017, 11:42 AM UTC

dogruck wrote: post #175

jessaustin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget about "perfect". In a merely better system, "success in school" would be the last thing anyone thought about. The purpose of school is not to determine how well children navigate various arbitrary obstacles to learning. The purpose is to teach them, in whatever individual fashion best helps them to learn. If that doesn't happen it is a failure of the school, not of the child. In a "perfect" system, the idea th…

I interpret your point as "in a perfect system, school will be a playground, with no connection to a career, and everyone will have equal wealth." I do agree that schools are culpable when a child (and parents) fails. I do not agree that we should take away the student's agency.

Did school teach you to over-interpret? I don't mention playgrounds, nor the "agency" of 6yos. Do you trust your 6yo's agency next to a busy highway? No? Then why is she responsible for dealing with her teacher's poor attitude and teaching habits?

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#235

Post by wfo » Fri, Oct 13, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

echaozh wrote: post #233

wfo wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience certain children (and adults) -- ones who live in successful, wealthy neighborhoods are completely terrified of the idea of failing, at anything. They will start weeping if they feel like they performed poorly on an exam. Any test, no matter how meaningless, determines their self-worth. I'd imagine these students do disproportionately fantastic on this test. At this point it's culture/personality tes…

And that's perhaps why they, or at least their family became successful and/or wealthy in the first place? If you don't even want to be successful and/or wealthy, and you don't try, your chance of becoming so is definitely much lower.

I think the pathology of worship of competition and the credentialing system -- insisting you must be the best on a test that you are explicitly told means nothing is a mental disorder developed due to being raised in certain cultural contexts, not a cause of success -- do you really think breaking down in tears at the slightest inconsequential setback is a good recipe for success in the primarily luck-driven market economy we live in? How many times do eventually successful entrepreneurs fail and keep going undiscouraged?

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#236

Post by bigmanwalter » Tue, Oct 24, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #227

colechristensen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to say that education is great as it is, but the worst attitude you can come across from a student or a person in general is the question "When am I ever going to need this?" The most important point of school isn't accumulating facts or skills but teaching students _how to think_. How to reason, how to solve problems, the absorption of a diversity of ideas and topics. To expose everyone to the knowledg…

First let me say that if you read between the likes of my original post and some of my follow up posts, you will see that you and I agree on the idea of teaching people how to think (I call this disciplinary approaches to learning). The issues is the path. As such.... > but the worst attitude you can come across from a student or a person in general is the question "When am I ever going to need this?" If you can't an…

Thanks for pointing me to Robert Kegan.

I agree with every point you've made in this thread! Glad to find others who share these perspectives.