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2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

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Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they are immigrants, knowing Spanish makes them half-way native English speakers because of the similarities between English and Spanish.

English is a Germanic language, with vocab borrowed from lots of other sources but mostly French, Spanish is a Romance language (with, especially in it's Latin American form) a bunch of vocabulary borrowed from Nahuatl and Quechua. They are extremely dissimilar grammatically, and though they have some overlap and similarities in vocabulary, it's nowhere close to making fluency with either making you even minimally fu…

This chart shows approximate linguistic distances between most European languages. It looks pretty accurate; in my experience Dutch speakers do indeed have an easier time learning English compared to native speakers of other languages.

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/a-map-of-lexical-distances-...

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#222

What is California's score if you get remove all the test scores of illegal immigrants. I'm sure that they drastically drop the scores. Being an ESL student would make school significantly harder. And would also explain he low English skills. And given that most illegals are manual labor and not high skilled jobs, the kids don't have parents who can help their kids with maths.

We can do without this kind of inflammatory conjecture on Hacker News. The bar for civility and substantiveness goes up when approaching controversial issues. It's not about whichever position you take—it's about being thoughtful enough to afford a reasonable follow-up discussion.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#223
post #219
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with you here. I think it is a social benefit to expose everyone to a variety of disciplines. How many chemists or engineers or astronauts or authors found their calling in a classroom? I would wager there are a lot of them. Is it the only way? No, but for a lot of people it is how they find their way in life. Giving everyone access to this kind of exploratory environment can yield huge benefits to society…

> I disagree with you here. I think it is a social benefit to expose everyone to a variety of disciplines. How many chemists or engineers or astronauts or authors found their calling in a classroom? I would wager there are a lot of them. Is it the only way? No, but for a lot of people it is how they find their way in life. Interestingly, I think that we are in agreement here. Your underlying assumption is that the le…

I'm advocating changing education so it works for "the other 70%". You seem to advocate just giving up on them because they can't be reached. This is our disagreement.

Your position seems to be that education should identify strengths and build on them at the exclusion of weaknesses. My position is that education should fill in gaps and make everyone more balanced. These are fundamentally different positions.

Also, made up numbers like "70% of people don't care about education" raise red flags for me.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It points to a problem in the test itself Please forgive what might be construed as quibbling, but I'm increasingly dismayed by the doxa that poor scores on tests reflect poor testing practices. To be clear, testing practices in the U.S. are crappy, but so is the secondary education system in general (at least, compared to much of Western Europe). More to the point: these results point to a problem either with the t…

Your comment would have been more credible if you had spelled 'Asimov' correctly.

And your would be more credible if it had substance.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#225
post #223
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree with you here. I think it is a social benefit to expose everyone to a variety of disciplines. How many chemists or engineers or astronauts or authors found their calling in a classroom? I would wager there are a lot of them. Is it the only way? No, but for a lot of people it is how they find their way in life. Interestingly, I think that we are in agreement here. Your underlying assumption is that the le…

I'm advocating changing education so it works for "the other 70%". You seem to advocate just giving up on them because they can't be reached. This is our disagreement. Your position seems to be that education should identify strengths and build on them at the exclusion of weaknesses. My position is that education should fill in gaps and make everyone more balanced. These are fundamentally different positions. Also, m…

> I'm advocating changing education so it works for "the other 70%". You seem to advocate just giving up on them because they can't be reached. This is our disagreement.

That's a fairly pedantic stance to take.

Would you still hold this belief if you talked to the students and parents and they basically said "we don't want this"?

I have asked this question to many people, and that is what they said. When asked what they do want, they said they wanted things that will get them (basically) money, power, and/or social currency (with an element of stability/consistency thrown in for each of these).

FWIW, I do not advocate giving up on anyone. That said, I don't agree with force-feeding them certain types of education because those are the types of learning that upper middle class people value. The short summary of the research in this area is that it doesn't work particularly well.

> Your position seems to be that education should identify strengths and build on them at the exclusion of weaknesses. My position is that education should fill in gaps and make everyone more balanced. These are fundamentally different positions.

Maybe at an abstract level, but I don't really see that in what I have said so far. My actual beliefs are quite the opposite -- fill the gaps. The issue is what is considered a "gap". What many educated folks call "gaps", less educated folks call "features" (e.g., creationism).

> Also, made up numbers like "70% of people don't care about education" raise red flags for me.

Meh, it's a little hand-wavy, but it's not far off from a literal perspective or from an eyeballing it perspective.

About 32% of any given cohort of high school aged people will graduate from college before they are 24. That's the source of my number. There are definitely arguments to be made around the periphery, but that's the target audience I refer to. I think the total college attending % is 50-something (stats say 66% of high school grads, but they leave out the 18% high school dropouts in their counts, so it's off by a bit), so feel free to use that if you like. I personally consider most of those folks who did not finish to be not a good fit for college from the get go (and that's totally ok for them not to be a good fit).

My overall point is that the modern high school curriculum was designed at a time when most of the folks who went to high school went to college or worked with people who did. For example, in 1900, only ~6% of the population graduated from high school, ~2% finished college, and a few more got "letters of instruction" after two years of higher ed. Basically, high school education was for the elite. Yet that curriculum oriented towards the elite is still used in practice today. Why?

I really encourage you to go to a school (probably inner city or rural) that has a very low college-attendance rate. Talk to the students. Talk to the teachers. Talk to the parents. Their perspectives are fairly valid -- they just want a good life for the students. The tricky question is what constitutes "good life" and what is the best way to get there. I personally don't think that our current system answers either question particularly well.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#226
post #176

Treating learning as a process of moving information into children’s minds and then checking it’s quality via tests is an old, inefficient and misaligned with what we know about learning. It is a broken approach which makes sense in the context of training factory workers while providing childcare for their worker parents. Works so-so for the bean counters at the tremendous cost of crushing ebmveryone else. It is aby…

What would be a new, efficient approach?

Efficient from the standpoint of students?

I’d recommend looking into democratic schools. Focusing on empowering learning to learn, self determination, intrinsic motivation, leadership, public speaking, project-based learning.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#227
post #117

When are we going to come out and admit that our schools are not providing our society with what it needs or wants? For a large chunk of HN, schools served us relatively well. But for a huge chunk of the US, school is just a waste of time. At best, it's free childcare for parents. Preparing everyone to college is overkill (n.b. having a way for everyone who wants to go to college an affordable way to go to a good sch…

I'm not going to say that education is great as it is, but the worst attitude you can come across from a student or a person in general is the question "When am I ever going to need this?" The most important point of school isn't accumulating facts or skills but teaching students _how to think_. How to reason, how to solve problems, the absorption of a diversity of ideas and topics. To expose everyone to the knowledg…

First let me say that if you read between the likes of my original post and some of my follow up posts, you will see that you and I agree on the idea of teaching people how to think (I call this disciplinary approaches to learning). The issues is the path. As such....

> but the worst attitude you can come across from a student or a person in general is the question "When am I ever going to need this?"

If you can't answer this question convincingly, you will get low learner engagement and virually no learning. It's not an attitude, it's a reality for many parents and educators.

> The most important point of school isn't accumulating facts or skills but teaching students _how to think_.

Actually, I largely agree with this.

> How to reason, how to solve problems, the absorption of a diversity of ideas and topics.

This is largely deferred to the community's beliefs on these topics. Most people actively avoid seeking out diverse viewpoints.

> [you go on to say a lot of things that are relevant for people who exist in educated communities]

I agree that these things are great for people who exist in educated communities. For most communities, challenging the standard ideas is a good way to get ostracized from that community.

> and what YOU want to do is optimize for an even worse metric, myopic utility.

Hmmm... I think you're putting words into my mouth here.

First, we largely fail at fundamentals of literacy and numeracy in the US for large swathes of the population. You might call this "myopic utility", but I call it mastering the fundamentals.

Second, I totally agree that we need to teach people how to think (i.e., disciplinary approaches to learning), but the question is in what context. Right now, we largely do not tailor education to the learners' contexts -- I think this would be a move in the right direction, but standardized tests get in the way. We currently teach people what to think (e.g., evolution over creationism, this art versus that art, this interpretation of history versus that interpretation of history, etc.), and this just doesn't go over well with people who don't already believe it.

We also try to force the high-brow canon of art and literature down people's throats, while at the same time denigrating contemporary forms of art (e.g., the small-minded English lit teacher saying that rap isn't poetry/art/music -- it happens).

Third, you seem to believe that utility in education is a bad thing. Why is that? I mean, it's great if a learner is open to being exposed to new and challenging ideas, but that does not describe most learners. That said, teaching utilitarian skills like literacy, numeracy, and communication have a high value for both the learner and society. Add fundamental ways of thinking about science, history, and art through the exploration of one's environment makes that person a massive winner in my book -- we just don't get there with many people these days.

Check out Robert Kegan's model of adult development The Evolving Self -- his Wikipedia page has a decent summary. Most people are in the imperial or interpersonal stage, while few are in the institutional or interindividual stages (fwiw, I like Loevinger's labels better). This is especially true when people are younger. Thinking about learners and learner contexts in terms of these stages presents some interesting perspectives/challenges.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't like how you need so many licenses to be a teacher. Most college lecturers do not have a background in education and definitely don't have a license and we do just fine. The licenses just feel like a way to limit supply. Teaching adults who pay for the privilege of being in your class is VERY VERY different from teaching children who are forced to be in your class. The latter requires a very special skill se…

That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.

This dismissive attitude really pisses me off.

Babysitters don't have to get the kids to DO anything.

Saying these are the same is like saying a manager in a business is only supposed to check if employees showed up and clocked in.

Sure, some managers are that bad at their job, but it is also very clear that their job is supposed to be much more than that.

Same with teachers. Getting 30 children who did not choose to be there to actually DO something is a very different skillset than babysitting.

/rant

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#229
post #204
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This doesn't seem like that bad of an idea. One of the bigger problems with tests is that they tend to become a terrible metric once people start preparing for them specifically (and test-prep can suck the oxegyn out of real education). If the students and teachers don't care about the test, it is much easier (but still difficult) to make a test that gives useful feedback to the school system. Of course, you want s…

Are you certain that most college lecturers do just fine? I have heard multiple complaints from students at California public colleges about lecturers who could barely speak English.

That complaint has been around as long as there have been lazy students. When lazy students find themselves in a class taught by a foreigner with a thick accent, they almost invariably blame the accent (barely speaks English) for their own failures, which, as often as not, probably have more to do with students' own laziness.

Re: 2017 California school test scores: Why are they flatlining?

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 'managing psychopaths' portion of the teacher skill set sure seems similar to that required of babysitters.

This dismissive attitude really pisses me off. Babysitters don't have to get the kids to DO anything. Saying these are the same is like saying a manager in a business is only supposed to check if employees showed up and clocked in. Sure, some managers are that bad at their job, but it is also very clear that their job is supposed to be much more than that. Same with teachers. Getting 30 children who did not choose to…

That's the ideal. Except that in the status quo, only the good teachers need to get the kids that don't want to DO anything to DO anything, and the practical consequences for failing to motivate the slackers are nil.

Otherwise, there are two basic possibilities depending on the kid's parents. Either the kid is expected to try and DO something (and does), or the parent only expects child care. In the latter case, avoiding willful destruction and interruption is all that is required … tada, babysitting!

The manager analogy doesn't make sense because managers are much more directly accountable for whether the employees achieve anything for the company while clocking in. If managers' mostly subjective assessments were the only tangible output of employee time and other impacts were felt years later and weren't directly ascribable to an individual manager, then maybe the analogy would work.

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