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Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

luna-lang.org

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Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#231

Post by kustosz »

agentultra wrote: post #205
crimsonalucard wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this visual stuff is perfect for functional (math based) programming as composed expressions aren't easily readable as english. I find language to be better suited for imperative procedures. Think about it, I have a list of tasks, do I write that list in ordered English bullet points or do I draw a diagram?

I find simple math to be much more elegant and easier to comprehend then a jumbled visual diagram. It's much easier to understand a universal quantification in a standard notation than reasoning by visual analogies. Programming languages tend to be a little less expressive and elegant. They're more complicated too. For reasons of course... but I don't think I'm going to be writing algorithms and data-structures in su…

Some things look best in text and it's fine. However, "programming" is a very broad category, and definitely does not boil down only to algorithms and data structures. I'd even say that most programming tasks in the world right now are much less about complex algorithms and much more about everyday systems plumbing. Sure, at some point you'll need to fire a complicated linear algebra kind of algorithm, but before you get there, you need to get the data out from some source, do some reformatting, decide which algorithms to run and when and then send the results somewhere else. And for that, seeing what is happening with your data the moment you try a solution, and deciding the next step based on immediate feedback is great.

This is pretty much why we've gone with interchangeable representations instead of going "visual only". The choice of the proper tools / representations highly depends on the context, and we want to leave that for the programmer's decision.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#232

Post by loup-vaillant »

jmull wrote: post #222
simplify wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry dude, I'm going to have to step in; you're being too strong in your counter attitude. I've been writing and teaching JavaScript professionally for many years, and while I don't hate the language, I don't blame those who do. After learning and using a statically typed language, it becomes absurd how much effort you have to put in to debug a JavaScript type error – a problem that is amplified by the language desi…

(just going' down this rabbit hole with you all) The problem I have with static typing (as widely implemented) is it solves little problems at the cost of arbitrary inflexibility which ends up rippling through a code base. And the little problems are better solved in other ways. E.g., unit tests and the like catch type errors on the way to validating that your code actually does what you think it should do. Static ty…

> The problem I have with static typing (as widely implemented)

Mainstream type systems are best ignored. If it doesn't have sum types, it's not a good type system. If it doesn't have generics, it's not a good type system.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#233

Post by wdanilo »

jamiek88 wrote: post #229
wdanilo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are also super curious and we hope it will shine. If you hope for it too, let's contribute! We'd love to work with you to polish it as much as possible! :)

Is there a way for a beginning developer to help? Maybe with documentation? I could at least help with editing / proof reading and the drudge work you guys are too talented to be doing! Your time is much better spent on the core development.

There is always a way to help and we are very grateful for helping us. It means a lot to me. But please, do not treat us like "too talented to do something". I feel just wrong then :)

Drop me a line at wojciech at luna-lang.org and we could work something out :) I do not promise we will be able to collaborate before the release (we've got our hands full of work and we're hardly sleeping in nights now), but in the early days / moths after the release the help would be much needed and we would love to build community around people as passionate as you are! Thank you! :)

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#234

Post by wdanilo »

danem wrote: post #230

I'm struck by the similarity to grasshopper. This seems to share many of the same features such as visual profiling, visual / textual representation, live previews etc... Has it inspired the design at all?

Grasshopper did not, but Houdini / Touch designer actually did.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#235

Post by mkl »

wdanilo wrote: post #97
xor1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like how the Luna site looks. As someone who knows nothing about web front-end, how was it made? Custom-built? Template?

Our programmer designed it and we've just build it using some standard bootstrap. It might seem like a joke, but it's currently not :D

You might want to adjust the colours, and look at it on a few more screens. The medium grey on dark grey is pretty unreadable - the only reason I didn't close the page immediately is the number of upvotes it got on HN.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#236

Post by the_cat_kittles »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #226
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool, i didnt want to hurt your feelings, just point out that you are a baseless snob

If I had to guess, I would point out that JavaScript was originally hacked out in 10 days, and features a number of unforgivable flaws, such as a non-transitive equality operator, weird implicit conversions, or just plain trying to make sense of quite obviously nonsensical operations. To someone used to the mathematical rigour of typed functional languages, this is not even worth looking at. As far as I know, the suc…

"To someone used to the mathematical rigour of typed functional languages,

this is patently false, just check out brian lonsdorf

"As far as I know, the success of JavaScript had nothing to do with its qualities as a language. It was timing and market forces. It was there, so people used it."

i would wager this is largely true

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#237

Post by wdanilo »

mkl wrote: post #235
wdanilo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our programmer designed it and we've just build it using some standard bootstrap. It might seem like a joke, but it's currently not :D

You might want to adjust the colours, and look at it on a few more screens. The medium grey on dark grey is pretty unreadable - the only reason I didn't close the page immediately is the number of upvotes it got on HN.

Would it help if we put a button "high-contrast"? On vast majority of displays the website looks well balanced and not eye-burning, but of course it does not cover older displays, displays that are dimmed or used in heavy lighting. Would such button solve your problems or do you think we should just strongly re-consider how we present everything?

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#238

Post by daxfohl »

I'd productize this more as the next level of "spreadsheet" than of "programming language". These kinds of visual programming things always seem to come out with lots of fanfare but then never get used for real work. The spreadsheet, however, is by nature reactive, relational, visual, impromptu, yada yada. But even though spreadsheet tech has added lots of functionality over the years, it's still essentially based on an old paper grid.

I could see a product like this challenging that old basis with something more modern. But it still has to do all the stuff regular spreadsheets can do too. And ensuring that it can, and in an intuitive fashion, should probably be the first priority.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#239

Post by the_cat_kittles »

simplify wrote: post #214
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a good characterization of what causes people confusion, and i think the parallel with people going to c from js is totally right. i experienced that myself. its a great way to put it and i will probably use it, thanks! the second point about being more understanding surely applies more to the person proudly hating a language with no constructive support about why, and little evidence of an effort to overcome…

If the hate were towards a person, I would completely agree with you. But OP is only hating JavaScript-the-tool, so I have no contempt towards his opinion. In contrast, if OP were hating on JavaScript programmers , then your indignation would be completely justified. But he's not, and I admit to holding a similar position: I hate C++ and prefer to never lay eyes on it again, but I have nothing against C++ programmers…

thats a good distinction, and i suppose its defensible. but imagine you are a trumpet player, and a pianist walks by and says "i hate that non-instrument trumpet" unprovoked. no one is wrong to hate the trumpet. but saying it to a trumpet player, and then saying they aren't even a musician (implied by "non-language"), is going to catch heat.

and its undeniably true that javascript has got loads of warts. i mean, look no further than "javascript: the good parts" as perhaps the most recommended book. (i guess you already know this, but for the maybe 1 other person reading this...) but despite that, i enjoy the hell out of writing good js, and love that people can use what you make by going to web page. and w/r/t the warts, i feel that if they were corrected, my js life woulnd't change much at all. so when people point to the warts as evidence that its a bad language, all i can say is that while they are obviously bad, they dont end up mattering to me. thats clearly not true of everyone, but id bet its true alot. because of this, i find it pretty easy to spot people who are excited to hate js because they are pretty sure its a safe thing to hate and it will make them look in the know. i mean, i was guilty of this when i was younger with mysql and php.

and yes, people being "forced" to use js is surely contributing to the hate, probably the same way people hate having to use css. they look at them as afterthoughts, but its funny because in a lot of cases, its like the main thing that needs work. i just wonder why people cling to the idea that "real programming" has a certain look, when being good at js and css is super helpful and important to good web projects.

i suppose we are arguing for the same thing- basically open-mindedness and willingness to learn.

Re: Luna – Visual and textual functional programming language

#240

Post by the_cat_kittles »

danellis wrote: post #218
the_cat_kittles wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it does, because you are clearly just a snob. its so obvious that people are just looking for reasons to hate javascript when they post shit like your dumb example. though i concede that is a pretty hilarious "wat". virtually all the dumb "gotchas" never show up, and the real gotchas are learned early, just like other languages. you are like a classical musician who thinks every other kind of music is not real and ea…

> its so obvious that people are just looking for reasons to hate javascript Why would anyone have the motivation to do that? Either it has given them reasons to dislike it, or it hasn't. Why do you think anyone is predisposed to looking for those reasons?

its just a kind of hipster thing to do, to hate things. i did it with mysql and php. its like a way to show that you are cool.
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