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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#231

Post by folli »

Svip wrote: post #181
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

My point is that the more people feel detached from the political process, the less responsible they feel to take an active part in the process. This is why I believe that a regional government is to be preferred over a centralistic government.

I'm aware that not all problems can be solved on a regional level, but those that can, should. This is especially true on a cultural more diverse landscape such as Europe compared to e.g. the US.

Regarding your second question, lack of democracy: one thing that comes to mind is the lack of binding referendums and initiatives, as it happens e.g. in Switzerland on a regular basis.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#232

Post by krona »

lhopki01 wrote: post #135
krona wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will include higher prices Interesting. I was in a UK supermarket the other day and the asparagus on offer was from Spain and Mexico. The Mexican variety was cheaper, and just as good. Currently, Mexico pays a 14.4% common external tariff on this product, and it's still cheaper than what the EU (with it's massive array of agricultural subsidy) can produce. I imagine this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Yes anecdotal evidence of one trip to the supermarket which has nothing to do with the very terrible winter in Southern Europe. Time for anecdotal evidence. My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote.

This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account.

Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#233

Post by gonvaled »

Theresa May wants deep and special partnership with the EU, without contributing at all to its existence. If every country in the EU does the same, guess what, there is no EU.

And without EU, without compromises, without rules, without standards, without common legislation, nothing of value rests. Just a bunch of countries, a bunch of private enterprises, trying to cherry pick in each an every transaction, looking for the shortest of short term profits, continuously changing course, now associating with this country, now with this other. Now selling round bananas, tomorrow selling bananas polluted with lead. Today not allowing imports of bananas from Romania because they are not straight enough, and tomorrow not accepting them from Italy because they are too straight.

Foreign citizens get expelled with made up reasons, according to what the popular opinion of the moment is. Trucks get delayed or not in a complete obscure manner.

Products get made and exported without any respect for work or environmental regulations. Quality does not satisfy any kind of standards. Nobody can trust any foreign business because there is no institution to complain to in case consumer rights are not respected. Financial products are sold to steal savings from foreign investors - until this is recognized and foreign investors stop using those investment vehicles, completely destroying the market.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#234

Post by randiantech »

mrcarrot wrote: post #198
cmdkeen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except "the experts" were predicting terrible things immediately, not later on - remember the punishment budget necessity? Inflation "massively outstripping wages" is just over the Bank of England's target, the one it has been massively under for the past 5 years. The drop in sterling doesn't lead to sustained inflationary pressure. Wages are also picking up as well, though not in the public sector. The "massive incr…

Surely "experts" were predicting things would change immediately _after the UK leaves the EU_. Which as the GP said, hasn't happened yet.

Didnt the experts also said that UK not joining the Euro was going to be a catastrophe?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#235

Post by lhopki01 »

krona wrote: post #232
lhopki01 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes anecdotal evidence of one trip to the supermarket which has nothing to do with the very terrible winter in Southern Europe. Time for anecdotal evidence. My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote.

This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account. Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.

It's one datapoint alongside a well know fact that Southern European vegetables are more expensive atm because of a bad winter.

You have pointed out one good amongst thousands that was cheaper when it came from outside the EU. I'm sure there are many others but that's irrelevant. Those specific goods does not mean that this is the result of the EU. What everyone is afraid of is what will happen if tariffs are applied to EU goods when they come into the UK.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#236

Post by gonvaled »

peferron wrote: post #182
dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

> Also I seriously don't think of the Brexit that the UK leaves Europe. What do you mean by "Europe" here? I guess you don't mean the Union nor the geographical continent (since the UK is obviously leaving one and staying in the other), so you must mean something else, but I'm not sure what.

I guess he means Europe the collection of states which is in the geographical continent. Which the UK is also obviously not leaving. And which is totally uninteresting since a "collection of countries" do not have a common interest, nor a common policy, nor a common market, nor a common anything.

The "Countries of the European Continent" have exactly the same international clout that any random group of world countries: without structures, without organization, without agreements, a bunch is just a bunch.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#237

Post by zelos »

folli wrote: post #231
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

My point is that the more people feel detached from the political process, the less responsible they feel to take an active part in the process. This is why I believe that a regional government is to be preferred over a centralistic government. I'm aware that not all problems can be solved on a regional level, but those that can, should. This is especially true on a cultural more diverse landscape such as Europe comp…

Subsidiarity is one of the founding tenets of the EU:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/summary/glossary/subsidiarity.html

Whether that's true in practice is a matter of opinion.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#238

Post by mrcarrot »

randiantech wrote: post #234
mrcarrot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely "experts" were predicting things would change immediately _after the UK leaves the EU_. Which as the GP said, hasn't happened yet.

Didnt the experts also said that UK not joining the Euro was going to be a catastrophe?

Some of them, probably. Were they the same ones?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#239

Post by bambax »

From the letter[1] of PM May to Pres. Tusk:

> At a time when the growth of global trade is slowing and there are signs that protectionist instincts are on the rise in many part of the world, Europe has a responsibility to stand up for free trade in the interest of all our citizens

This is pretty rich. Protectionist "instincts" are on the rise in the UK and the US first and foremost today, so maybe those countries are not in the best position to lecture the rest of the world against them?

The crux of the matter is, countries have no friends and no moral imperatives, they only have interests; May's letter is very short on what the interests of the EU are, to try to give the UK a "nice" deal. How would the EU benefit from a deal -- any deal at all -- vs no deal?

(Also, this is a small detail but maybe not an insignificant one, negotiations cost money; if there is no hope of gaining anything, why should EU negotiators even show up? It would save money to simply not talk at all).

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/29_03_17_article5...

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#240

Post by stuaxo »

fredley wrote: post #60
ForRealsies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

There should probably autonomous regions, the West and the North are neglected, they could have their own governments (but still be part of England).
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