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This is not a place of honor

wipp.energy.gov

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Re: This is not a place of honor

#231

Post by grkvlt »

aninhumer wrote: post #138
twright0 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might be aware of the dangers of radiation in the abstract, but they might not be able to read our current marking systems to learn that there is a specific threat from radiation at that specific location. 10,000 years is a very long time to try to preserve information across.

If the culture is advanced there are ways we could express the concept of radiation without needing a common language. There are a lot of innate scientific patterns to draw on, like the structure of an atom, the periodic table or a mushroom cloud.

A mushroom cloud just connotes a large explosion near the ground. Atomic structure may be the best to go with, since pictorial descriptions of alpha, beta and gamma radiation are found in every high-school science textbook. One issue with an advanced culture is that they may be rebuilding to the same technological state as we were around 1950, so when they find the site they go: "Cool, radioactive stuff! Might be Uranium! Just what we need to fuel our fission reactors..." Then, they discover it's merely low-level waste after building an enormous open-cast mine on the site, and polluting the countryside for miles around. I believe this was a scenario they considered, with some kind of warning marker seeded in the backfill above the underground chambers. It would show up in the tailings of any exploratory drill-holes, as chips of plastic (?) with a radiation hazard symbol.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#232

Post by badloginagain »

neltnerb wrote: post #111
orbitingpluto wrote: post #105

I'm never understood this marker system. Graves have been marked in a threatening manner so that they would not be plundered. It doesn't work. The point is to hide the waste. The system should be designed to progressively unveil warnings if some future man starts digging. Otherwise, you're just asking for them to dig it up. Another thing not mentioned is to design the container so that anyone who plans to excavate wi…

I thought it was pretty interesting that they weren't really talking about making the site "threatening", but making it "repulsive". Poor craftsmanship, ugly terrain, uncomfortable heat, low value materials, etc. Some of their design photos were very different from what I'd assumed, and pretty much immediately triggered my "eww" response. Not intimidating exactly, just uncomfortable.

I really like going the repulsive route. Disgust is a primal instinct, and the reaction is ubiquitous for all humans- leave the disgusting thing alone.

I also like the breakdown they have of the different levels of communication. I can easily see it being mapped to product design- easy to digest information at the top of the funnel, more detailed/important information as you approach the bottom of the funnel.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#233

Post by pqhwan »

I find the "human comes near box with radioactive sign/sign is on human now/human sick" drawing to be a pretty universal warning sign. No matter how many years we're aiming for the message to survive, as long as we're warning against humans, wouldn't using the human form somehow in the message be the best way? Isn't drawing narratives with bipedal stick figures something we've had since the dawn of humanity?

Re: This is not a place of honor

#234

Post by finnh »

tgb wrote: post #222

Wait, can we all just take a minute to relish the extreme nominative determinism in Ward Goodenough being involved in this project? This man was born for this role.

good eye! if I could up vote you a thousand times I would.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#235

Post by paulmd »

krkoch wrote: post #110
kbart wrote: post #101

Any marks would only attract people's attention. I can't come up with a single historical example where some marks would successfully keep people away. Even now we keep digging once forbidden and sacred places like pyramids, graves, temples, plague victims' burial grounds. Furthermore, a "menacing earthworks" example from the article looks like a treasure is buried inside that square. Why not bury it deep enough in a…

I'm not so sure. Primitive mining in e.g. Røros, Norway goes back to 1740. Dynamite were introduced to the mine in 1870. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B8ros

Mining is much, much, much older than 1740. Basic cave mining dates back to prehistory, organized tunnel mining dates back to Ancient Egypt and Greece, and the Romans used sophisticated large-scale hydraulic-mining techniques with the use of pumps to drain water from deeper mines. By the medieval period the Germans were hitting really tremendous depths - by 1700 or so many mines were hitting depths of 300+ meters.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#236

Post by periphrasis »

phpnode wrote: post #122
periphrasis wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Admittedly, I haven't read the article, but the tone of the message suggests that it's not meant for future generations of our civilization, but for future generations of whatever cultures come after our civilization is gone. There's a pretty remarkable old English poem that survived from Dark Ages Britain, in which the author marvels at the ruins of Roman Britain, wondering what giants must have once inhabited the l…

Do you have a link to that poem?

Sure, it's called The Ruin, and is available in the following collection: https://archive.org/details/anglosaxonnorsep00chadrich

It had been a while since I read it, and on rereading it, I'm not convinced the narrator was ignorant of who built the ruins he is looking at. Nevertheless, it's a pretty amazing artifact of someone looking at the ruins of collapsed culture, imagining how grand it must have been in comparison to the bleak present.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#237

Post by dsfyu404ed »

vonmoltke wrote: post #214
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire premise is that this waste is going to be toxic for 10,000 years. So we're not allowed to posit 'cool in a couple hundred years'.

"Toxic for 10,000 years" does not mean "get radiation exposure for standing next to unshielded waste", not does "cool" mean "non-toxic". The ionizing radiation danger of materials is inversely proportional to their half-life. Stuff that requires inches of lead generally has half-lives in the years or tens of years. Stuff with half-lives in the thousands of years can generally be "shielded" by a thick glass jar.

This, if something's emitting a lot of energy it won't be doing so for long.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#239

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

felipeerias wrote: post #173
tinco wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not thinking on the 10.000 year timescale. So you hide it, after 1000 years someone starts digging there and finds it anyway, they see the messages and stop, and then the site is left unhidden for the next 9000 years, what should it look like? Also even if poisoning people was ethical, how would the poison last 10,000 years? And how would you prevent people from using the poison as the potent weapon it clearly…

We still haven't opened the tomb of the first emperor of China, which has been closed for more than two millennia. One of the main reasons is the presence of enormous amounts of mercury. Whole rivers of it, according to tradition. There's your poison.

Even if we could enter the Qin emperor's tomb unharmed, we should leave it untouched out of respect for the dead.

Re: This is not a place of honor

#240

Post by cgriswald »

pqhwan wrote: post #233

I find the "human comes near box with radioactive sign/sign is on human now/human sick" drawing to be a pretty universal warning sign. No matter how many years we're aiming for the message to survive, as long as we're warning against humans, wouldn't using the human form somehow in the message be the best way? Isn't drawing narratives with bipedal stick figures something we've had since the dawn of humanity?

Og came upon a cave and discovered a strange symbol on a strange kind of stone he had never seen before. The stone was flat, and the symbol was neither painted on nor carved. On the strange stone, there were also what looked like people to Og, but the people were strange. They did not look like Og looked. Maybe they weren't people at all, but demons. And these demons looked to be dying. Suddenly, Og understood. This cave was a holy place. Og would tell his people about it and they would make offerings to the gods. And when the demons caused fires and floods, they would flee to this cave.
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