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Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

theguardian.com

231–240 of 438 posts

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#231
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> firearm murders are extremely rare (about one per year in a country of 60m) Are you sure about those statistics? http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/total_num...

I think the commenter meant homicides by saying "murder". Your graph clearly aggregates all gun related deaths

Understood, couldn't find aggregated gun murders (easily) but I'm fairly certain it's a lot more than the 1 / year the op was proposing.

It's quite a lot more than that in N.Ireland alone / year, even since '96.

[edit] My bad, found it. It's the graph below the one I originally linked. Of the total guns deaths, it looks like roughly 1/4 are homicide, 38 in 2011.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/number_of...

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#232
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this argument. The day you pull a gun on "government" is the day you will be killed on the spot, or sentenced to death row, or sent to life in prison with no chance of parole. You will be permanently removed from your comfortable life, and whomever takes that life away from you will face no penalty for doing so. So you own a handgun? The government will have assault rifles. Oh, you own an assaul…

> It doesn't matter what you own, the government will win every time. You are guaranteed to lose. I think this isn't true if enough people decide to attack the government in concert, say 10% of the population, that's 30 million people. I'm not saying that will ever happen, but American police forces are already stretched to the limit and can be easily tied up. But probably, knives would suffice for that purpose. Or j…

> American police forces are already stretched to the limit and can be easily tied up

Which is why state police and then the National Guard and then other branches of the military become involved in any serious unrest. E.g. Ferguson for an extremely recent example.

> say 10% of the population

Overwhlemingly dispersed throughout suburban and rural populations that are far more easily controlled than a large urban uprising. And also, it would take extraordinary circumstances to find 10% of the population willing to commit to an armed revolution. If you have that many people that angry, odds are that the democratic process would work far better anyways. That's the rub with this fantasy and why it hasn't happened in recent memory -- once that many people are that angry, they probably have a sympathetic majority anyways.

Keep in mind that the United States has 2mil+ prisoners and has absolutely no problem keeping the police. If we assume only a small fraction of people who could land in prison actually do, then it's entirely possible that 10% of the population is or was at one point at danger of being locked up and still would never commit to an armed insurrection.

Also, only ~60% of the US even votes. So 10% is a truly huge number.

Actually, the most ironic thing about this part of the gun debate is that the people who are least persecuted by actual systemic violence against subpopulations of the United States both 1) insist that this violence doesn't exist or is justified; and 2) worry about their own non-existent completely hypothetical persecution at some vague distant point in the future.

All the while, people who are in actually persecuted groups (poor, racial minorities who have double digit odds at incarceration) don't get involved in the gun debate because they know the "standing up to the man" fantasy is dangerous bullshit.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.

> What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals. I fail to see how this is an improvement. > Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. Practically speaking, a p…

A statement like I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. sure sounds like a statement that is inclusive of rates to me.

Say 1 guy uses a legitimate high caliber machine gun to commit some crime, is that the only crime that gets used when describing how criminals are armed in that country?

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then on the other hand we have: Exhibit A) Switzerland, 25 guns for 100 inhabitants, two mass shootings in the last 100 years Exhibit B) France, extremely restrictive gun laws, two mass shootings in less than one year So there's that...

All you'll get out of B is responses about terrorism and it doesn't count.

Right, because if some crazy asshole shoots people randomly it's a mass shooting but if he happens to be muslim it's terrorism. Sorry, keep forgetting about that memo.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am quite pro-gun, and terrorism doesn't even register on the reasons why. I believe the same could be said of most everyone I know in that community. It's not about fear; it's primarily about a worldview that centers on individuality and distrust of government.

I've never understood this argument. The day you pull a gun on "government" is the day you will be killed on the spot, or sentenced to death row, or sent to life in prison with no chance of parole. You will be permanently removed from your comfortable life, and whomever takes that life away from you will face no penalty for doing so. So you own a handgun? The government will have assault rifles. Oh, you own an assaul…

> It doesn't matter what you own, the government will win every time. You are guaranteed to lose.

You're thinking at the individual level. Of course the state is going to have far more firepower than anything an individual can muster.

Think in terms of asymmetrical warfare.

Why is the U.S. still in Afghanistan? Why did OIF go from a three-week invasion to over a decade of grueling counterinsurgency operations? Surely those scrappy little resistance fighters couldn't stand up to our might...they die in droves, yet they persist.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#236
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try different types of guns for what? The only primary purpose of a gun is to inflict a lot of damage to something. The Sun, is a terrible, terrible source of 'news'; http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3062107/Getting-hi... (you can safely ignore any of the red tops in the UK) I can understand the deep interest in guns, for instance I thoroughly enjoy FPS russia. But I do not think as a society we can manage t…

I used to fly. I'd quite like to fly many different marques, Spitfire included. So I can understand someone with an interest in firearms wanting to shoot many calibers and types. In the UK target shooting and clay pigeon shooting were the commonest use of firearms, rather than doing damage. Unless you count the paper. I'm well aware the Sun is just a comic, just sharing the recollection. :) Overall I'm in favour of l…

Indeed. It would be great if everyone were responsible and it could be a harmless collector's hobby, but they aren't and we can't have nice things.

I was actually taught to shoot at school in the UK (cadet scheme), so it's not something entirely alien to me. But it's not something I can see as "necessary" either.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a lot of discussion at the time, and my recollection is he was already known to mental health services. The Sun et al had him painted as a rabid survivalist of course. Wiki seems to say it was retrospective diagnosis, so I'm not sure... I can understand wanting to collect, or at least try, different types, but who in the world needs an assault rifle?

> but who in the world needs an assault rifle? Ignoring the "assault rifle" part of this. Semi-automatic carbines are great fun to shoot, they have a lower recoil impulse than traditional larger rifles and military surplus ammunition and parts generally creates a cheap and easy way to enjoy firearms. You can get an AR-15 for $600 or so and spend an afternoon enjoying it without a hurt shoulder or a bloody nose.

The question is then should society enable that enjoyment at the risk of mass-shootings. Could people maybe get their kicks a different way.

I've only shot air-rifles and shotguns IRL, I can appreciate the addictive qualities.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

Huh, what's wrong with me then. I absolutely do not need a gun, ever. Nobody needs a gun. If you think you need a gun then you have serious problems. Let's talk about basic human needs. Food, water, Air, and to a lesser extent clothing and shelter. You don't need a gun for any of those things. Sure a gun can help with food, but guess what, you don't even need to eat meat, there are so many other sources of food. So n…

Respectfully, what right do you have to determine my needs?

From a more practical perspective, what are you going to do about it? Are you proposing to take arms from the American people by force? How many deaths are acceptable to make that happen?

To be clear, I don't mean the above as a threat or anything of the sort. I'm merely pointing out the certain result of a policy of disarmament, and the hypocrisy of using force to render a population defenseless.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#239
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "way of life" thing either depends on terrorism killing enough people to destroy our way of life, or it's a self-fulfilling prophecy when we destroy our own way of life by overreacting. Either way, "terrorism doesn't kill very many people, so don't worry about it so much" addresses it. Not that people will listen , but it doesn't fail because it misses the point.

> depends on terrorism killing enough people to destroy our way of life Demographic and therefore cultural shifts do not only occur when a majority population has a high number of killings. They can also occur when immigrant populations are more fertile than the majority population. Terrorism is a signal of clashing ideologies but this in itself isn't a problem for a majority culture unless they believe themselves to…

I don't see much fear of being out-bred. Maybe in some fringe, but the mainstream seems to fear foreign terrorists coming here to kill people.

For example, look at the debate over Syrian refugees. The "against" side is not talking about refusing them because they'll start breeding here and their ideologies will clash, at least not that I've seen. Their reasoning is that terrorists will hide among the legitimate refugees as a way to gain access to the country.

Re: Toddlers Kill More People in the USA (with guns) Than Terrorists Do

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> police are not routinely armed I'm a gun owner and this is the key point for me. No politician is in a position to tell me I don't need my semi-automatic pistol if every day I see a patrol car go by my house with 2 fully automatic AR-15s locked between the front seats and my local police department owns an armoured vehicle. If you really think you have a plan for getting rid of guns for bad guys as well as me, pro…

Huh, what's wrong with me then. I absolutely do not need a gun, ever. Nobody needs a gun. If you think you need a gun then you have serious problems. Let's talk about basic human needs. Food, water, Air, and to a lesser extent clothing and shelter. You don't need a gun for any of those things. Sure a gun can help with food, but guess what, you don't even need to eat meat, there are so many other sources of food. So n…

And the government "needs" to take them, why? And the police "need" bigger ones, why? And the government "needs" attack drones, why? I don't think my post is unreasonable - I'm calling for demilitarization all over the place - not just the ones unlucky enough to not get a secret service detail or government issued weapon for life.
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