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Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

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Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Historically speaking" Historically speaking, when has the Fed kept interest rates at ZERO for 7 years? After pumping QE full throttle at $80B/mo? The economy has been in continuous "recovery" mode since '08, but not much has actually recovered. The market is going to collapse my friend because, historically speaking, we are in dark, uncharted territory and have lost our way back.

> After pumping QE full throttle at $80B/mo? They did for a while. That part's over, though.

"Over"... i see no fat lady on stage

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interest rates are nominal; they only matter relative to some equilibrium. The equilibrium interest rate is somewhere close to zero.

On earth, a zero interest rate indicates a sick or at least stalled economy. The rate cannot be held at zero for much longer without risking a deeper debt via evermore unhealthy credit expansion, yet the consequences of raising it, even a little, will likely crush global markets as investors react etc. There is no question this economy is quite sick and has been breathing with aid of the Fed's iron lung so long that…

By unhealthy credit expansion you mean unhealthy Fed balance sheet expansion?

Very little of the credit created on the balance sheet has actually entered the market.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#234
post #7

Broadly speaking the US economy is quite healthy and people were expecting a correction in the stock market for some time. Within tech, it will have some negative impact on the plans of some companies as it will be harder to get lofty valuations based on 'fluff'... during such times investors want to see hard facts and real results to back-up value--but that's a broader trend thats been slowly developing for some tim…

Regardless of your ideological background, you cannot possibly assert the U.S economy is healthy. 0% interest rate for several years is not healthy. QE is not healthy. 100+ % debt:GDP ration is not healthy. Inflating assets is not healthy. A vanishing middle-class is not healthy.

A vanishing middle-class is not healthy.

Everyone's been picking at all your claims except this one, so let me jump in on this part.

You've been drinking too much of the kool-aid. It's certainly fashionable for talking heads to spout platitudes about the middle class, but it doesn't match the real world. The picture that's being painted is that the vast majority of us will be living lives as serfs, while a group of oligarchs (the arbitrarily mythical 1%) determine our fates while eating grapes and being fanned. That's not what's happening.

In fact, the VAST majority of Americans are better off than they ever have been. Check out this [1], for example, based on US census data.

Yes, the middle class has been disappearing, but they haven’t fallen into the lower class, they’ve risen into the upper class

Further, in the demographics where we have seen increases in inequality, the lion's share of the change has been the result of lifestyle choices made by the individual. Imagine a social order - call it "A" - in which most people are paired off and raising a family. In that world, a large portion of the families have two incomes, which are going to pay for a single rent or mortgage bill, a single set of utility expenses, etc. Imagine another society, "B", in which many of the folks corresponding to those paired adults have instead decided to go it alone, either by way of divorce, or even deciding to have a family with no mate.

Isn't it obvious that in society "B", the un-paired "families" are going to have far less aggregate income ('cause there's not a second breadwinner earning that income), and are going to have much greater expenses at the same time ('cause there's not a mate to share housing and utilities, and in fact other things like dining may need to be outsourced, that being the result of not having a mate to cooperate with)? And compared to those families that are following the "A" model, it'll appear that the "B"s have a disadvantage?

It doesn't apply for every case, but for most "B"s, a decline in purchasing power for the family is directly explainable by their own choices. We might wish that our choices had fewer side effects, but we can't blame it on others who made different choices.

[1] http://www.aei.org/publication/yes-the-middle-class-has-been...

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Historically speaking" Historically speaking, when has the Fed kept interest rates at ZERO for 7 years? After pumping QE full throttle at $80B/mo? The economy has been in continuous "recovery" mode since '08, but not much has actually recovered. The market is going to collapse my friend because, historically speaking, we are in dark, uncharted territory and have lost our way back.

We were also in uncharted territory when the stock market collapsed in 1929. The market had never crashed like that before. The market had also never crashed like 2000 because the internet tech sector had never existed like that before. The market had also never crashed like in 2008 because home loans had never been so lax in terms of lending such highly-leveraged loans to such low quality lenders. Every new crash li…

Exactly. This is why I don't follow the hypothesis that we're witnessing a crash due to unhealthy economic indicators/behaviors (debt ratios, QE, interest rates, etc). Of course those things matter, and they certainly suggest the economy is in bad shape (or at least on some pretty intense life support), but they don't seem to trigger crashes by themselves - the indicators and alarm signals have been painfully obvious for years now, and the market should have already taken them into consideration (at least to some degree).

As you say, we can't predict future crashes or the circumstances that trigger them, and I'm not entirely sure we've seen the trigger for a crash now. Perhaps we've set ourselves up for one, but it's doubtful that the indicators themselves will "pop the balloon".

In personal finance, you can use a variety of tricks to hide your bad finances for a while, but it's not usually your debt-to-income ratio (or any other technical indicator) that triggers bankruptcy; more often than not, people keep digging themselves deeper until the bank actually knocks on the door to repossess the house. Governments have historically shown that they can keep the game going far longer than any bank might allow (there are no real terms attached to their debt when they can literally print their own money).

We probably won't know the trigger this time (or any other time) until a collapse is already well underway, if it's indeed happening.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#236
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: I've been slow banned for this comment. Please read it, I'm sure a hell ban is coming next. Apparently having a different opinion politely expressed is not even allowed here anymore. Debt to Income- yes everyone and their dog walker is not out there buying condos hoping to flip them in 3 years, so we are less leveraged than we were. Hard to tell how much of this is because people have more money coming in or ar…

> having a different opinion politely expressed Do you honestly think you're expressing a different opinion by stating that everything is mostly bad? I'd say you're comfortably in the internet majority. > I'd like a stat that was EBIDTA of the S&P 500, inflation adjusted against the real money supply, over the past 30 years. Okay: http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-earnings/

That's not quite what MCRed asked for. He/she asked for "inflation adjusted against the real money supply". Elsewhere in the post MCRed also said something about the real money supply.

I think the background idea is that "real inflation" = "change in the real money supply". But that's wrong, because the economy changes size, too. That is, if I start a company and make some stuff, the economy is now bigger than it was. If the number of dollars doesn't increase, then the value of each dollar has to increase, so prices go down - deflation. What the Fed is trying to do is keep the value of the dollar (relatively) constant, rather than keep the number of dollars constant.

So I think MCRed's request (to the degree that it differed from your answer) is based on a mistaken idea...

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Historically speaking" Historically speaking, when has the Fed kept interest rates at ZERO for 7 years? After pumping QE full throttle at $80B/mo? The economy has been in continuous "recovery" mode since '08, but not much has actually recovered. The market is going to collapse my friend because, historically speaking, we are in dark, uncharted territory and have lost our way back.

We were also in uncharted territory when the stock market collapsed in 1929. The market had never crashed like that before. The market had also never crashed like 2000 because the internet tech sector had never existed like that before. The market had also never crashed like in 2008 because home loans had never been so lax in terms of lending such highly-leveraged loans to such low quality lenders. Every new crash li…

The crash (or correction) of 2015 might be because of student loans & labor participation rates of recent graduates. The load is such that many of them could not grow into the consumer role to the degree that the economy needed of them in order to grow. And reducing growth/recovery even further, stagnant wages further hold back consumption.

2008 and 2015 are economic events which feel to me like they're based in inequality manifesting in different ways.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#238
People's investment philosophy will vary and tolerance for risk will play a major role in it all.

My own view is this, and it is based on a lifetime of having made all the typical mistakes.

Steady is the best way to go for your investable funds. That means, go with stocks for a decent segment of your investments but temper this with investments that will help preserve capital when things get rocky. Keep a ratio between the two that is age-appropriate. There is a rule of thumb floating about among advisors that your stock percentage should be 110 minus your age. This may or may not be a good ratio for you but some method that helps discipline you in these decisions will help you and this is not a bad one for many people. The other major factor is to avoid impulse buying or selling and to keep transaction costs at a very low level - and this usually means going with broad-based no-load index funds for much of the ride.

Doing the above will not make anyone rich. It will, however, ensure that you have the best chances of getting decent, normal returns on average over time while helping to preserve your capital as you go. If you want extraordinary returns, get them through your startup or by doing extraordinary things in your work. For your investments, the rule is different. You do not "underperform" by hitting averages with your investments. You simply meet the goal that should be the defining goal for most people in that area.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PS... I don't deny that a subset of the US economy/workforce got hit really hard in 2008 and never recovered. But when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well.

> when you look at the US economy as a whole things are doing quite well To be more accurate, when you look at the propaganda spewed by the mainstream media, everything seems to be fine, because they keep spinning everything in a positive light. In the US, for starters, there's a huge bubble in stocks, and an echo bubble in housing. There's a massive property bubble in Canada and Australia, and so on. With interest r…

I think you're getting downvoted because you're bringing a bunch of paranoid conspiracy-theory drivel, but no data.

I mean, if you at least supplied some links to the data that you think support your view, that would make for a much more worthwhile post.

Re: Stocks Off Sharply as Market Upheaval Grows

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of your ideological background, you cannot possibly assert the U.S economy is healthy. 0% interest rate for several years is not healthy. QE is not healthy. 100+ % debt:GDP ration is not healthy. Inflating assets is not healthy. A vanishing middle-class is not healthy.

Honestly, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. You aren't wrong, per-say, you just list all things that have literally 0 to do with the actual problems. Its a very common political trick for an ideologue like yourself to grab a bunch of things they think are bad and argue they are the cause of all your ills. You are approaching things from a "this is good for people, it must be good for the count…

You guys are arguing the same point: the government blew it in 2007, and has been blowing it for the past 30 years.

Granted, you definitely give a more in-depth account of how we got to the end points that OP cites, but still I don't see the need for such hostility.

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