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Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

nytimes.com

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Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#221

Post by alricb »

throwaway556588 wrote: post #73
bsaul wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out or curiosity, why does the (religious) iranian regime keeps calling USA "the great devil" then ? Ps :reading some answers, i know about the history of conflicts between usa and iran. I was just pointing the fact that calling Iran a "natural ally" is a bit of a stretch.

I meet with a lot of people from that region. From my personal experience almost every Iranian in the US is very Westernized including women who dresses like any other American. But most other Arabs including Saudis I know are still very traditional. Most of Arab women in the US still wear scarves or even burkas. This is just what I have observed, I have no idea how they really think. Not sure if this translates to l…

The thing with Iranians is that most of them are ethnically and linguistically Persian. They are mostly Muslim, but then they're Shia, not Sunni; it's the Sunni extremist that tend to go nuts for scarves and burqas.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#222

Post by [deleted] »

anigbrowl wrote: post #216
0xFFC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor". and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negot…

I thought it was very interesting recently when FM Zarif, who seems very wise and pragmatic, discussed the nuclear negotiations as a form of diplomatic jihad , presumably to reassure the religious/political factions that that government had not gone 'soft'. As other people said, we have similar factions here in the USA. I am curious, is awareness of Persian history a regular part of Iranian cultural life? I mean in d…

[deleted]

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#223

Post by dragontamer »

Aqueous wrote: post #199
discardorama wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel is our ally ... ... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... ) ... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to…

And yet the President of the United States (and a member of the Democratic Party) just negotiated a deal entirely without the help of the Israel, in fact with a lot of hand-wringing and public protest from Israel and its leadership, a deal which Israel is very publicly angry about despite it being arguably in their self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East. Doesn't seem so much like we're in the pocket o…

Half of the country is. It bothers me greatly that the Republican Party would be more willing to listen to Bibi Netanyahu over President Obama.

Israel is still a foreign country who spied on us regularly. I don't have much trust in them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#224

Post by el_zorro »

anigbrowl wrote: post #216
0xFFC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iranian here , and I am commenting from Iran.Iranian people maybe most pro usa people in middle east. and about government, they just need keep people busy because of they systematic corruption. Thats all. 10 years before , Ali Khamneai said following : "anyone who says we should communicate with USA is or idiot or our enemy/traitor". and guess what ? today , FM Zarif have record in our history for maximum time negot…

I thought it was very interesting recently when FM Zarif, who seems very wise and pragmatic, discussed the nuclear negotiations as a form of diplomatic jihad , presumably to reassure the religious/political factions that that government had not gone 'soft'. As other people said, we have similar factions here in the USA. I am curious, is awareness of Persian history a regular part of Iranian cultural life? I mean in d…

I'm wondering if there's been something lost in translation there, though. The word, in Western understanding, means holy war, but a more apt translation is "struggle", in the same connotation that one would struggle with a cigarette addiction or the like. Extremist groups have claimed the word for more violent connotations, but traditionally is more like a burden that one struggles against.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#225

Post by ReadingInBed »

Udik wrote: post #134
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g.…

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can…

That's actually exactly why US and Israel make great allies. Both have great interest in aggressive imperialist foreign policies with little international oversight. I think the best chance of the US breaking away from Israel internationally is to change foreign policy in the US, versus specifically targeting Israel.

Edit: I'd like to add that I am not trying to make value judgements here. I'm not arguing that either the US or Israel foreign policy is bad or good, just very similar.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#226

Post by bsaul »

Udik wrote: post #134
rayiner wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is militarily aggressive, disregards civilian life, commits war crimes, disregards international law and opinion (with impunity due to the US and their veto - and forcing other countries to at least abstain from votes), Israel is our ally not because they're the "good guys" but because they share, and can help spread, our basic values about democratic government. You can have militarily aggressive democracies (e.g.…

Hm. So you're saying that a state disregarding tens of UN resolutions, that is in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention, that periodically massacres thousands of civilians, that faces mounting accusations of being an apartheid regime, that keeps creating civilian settlements in an occupied territory, that has secret nuclear weapons, that incarcerates people without accusation or trial - this state "shares and can…

There's a much simpler answer to what those values are : freedom of speech, sexual orientation, and religion.

They're basicaly the reason refugees go from the east to the west, and not the other way around.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#227

Post by dragontamer »

Tomte wrote: post #13
thescrewdriver wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, what else would be on that list?

Nationwide Universal Healthcare.

Obama didn't do that, and I don't think I would support ACA if it were universal healthcare.

ACA provides tax-deduction bonuses to people who purchase "high-deductable" plans to encourage people to actually _look_ at the bills they get from the doctor, instead of thinking "My Insurance pays for this anyway. I don't care".

That's... about it. Granted, these high-deductable plans have various standards (no preexisting conditions) on them, but at the end of the day, its a mechanism to attempt to bring the free market back into the health care system.

Health care remains broken, but at least it is more obvious to consumers now.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#228

Post by logfromblammo »

skylan_q wrote: post #41
bsaul wrote: post #5

Am i the only one amazed at the fact that we actually had to wait for iranians to accept to stop going toward nuclear weapons ? I mean, why did EU and US insist so much on wanting a deal ? It seemed to be that one side has all the leverage in the negociation and the other has none. We could have simply waited for the iranian regime to get so weakened that they'd simply surrender and accept every measure. So I don't u…

You have to realize that Iran is threatened by the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia. I won't be surprised when they break this deal and have their own nuclear weapons.

As with most nation-states, the Iranian ruling regime is threatened mostly by its own subjects/citizens. As long as their eyes point outward, they won't as easily see the corruption going on behind their backs.

The biggest actual external threat to Iran is the US becoming a net oil exporter.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#229

Post by judah »

Aqueous wrote: post #199
discardorama wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel is our ally ... ... because a large number of conservative Americans believe that Jesus is not going to come unless Israel is ruled by a Jewish king (or something like that; see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?p... ) ... because a large number of donors to the Republican (and Democratic) parties are wealthy Jewish folk. And we know that in the US, money talks when it comes to…

And yet the President of the United States (and a member of the Democratic Party) just negotiated a deal entirely without the help of the Israel, in fact with a lot of hand-wringing and public protest from Israel and its leadership, a deal which Israel is very publicly angry about despite it being arguably in their self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East. Doesn't seem so much like we're in the pocket o…

>> "despite it being arguably in [Israel's] best self-interest to defuse tension within the Middle East."

Israel and its backers don't like the Iran deal because it enables the Islamic Republic to gain nuclear weapons, which its powerful religious leaders hope to use on Israel.

And history has taught Jews to take threats to our existence seriously.

Re: Iran Nuclear Deal Reached

#230

Post by namlem »

bsaul wrote: post #40
colinplamondon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now, there's a lot of bubbling neutral-to-pro-US sentiment in the younger, wealthier segments of Iran. If we purposefully, wantonly destroy their economy without even negotiating, that disappears, and we turn potential allies into absolute enemies. The level of currency devastation they've had since the beginning of these sanctions, and resulting unemployment, have already pushed their finances to the brink. No…

"We may not like their government but at least they're rational" Well, a theocracy is almost by definition not rational, in the modern sense. It's based on divine laws, obedience, and absolute faith on an ideology. Not logic, provability, and the scientific method. Dealing with the iranian regime the same way you would deal with an occidental country is the greatest mistake i think. Thinking "sure, they apply shariah…

Iran is not as theocratic as Saudi Arabia or other Mid-Eastern states. The ayatollah is a religious dictator, yes, but the civil government is more powerful in Iran than in many of its neighbors.
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