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The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

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Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#221

Post by lmm »

antonapa wrote: post #204

There are a lot of very provoked males in these comments. Could this possibly correlate to the article which is based on experiences from someone not being a male in tech? It seems easier for most to get into lengthy counter arguments about why it isn't like the article states, rather than acknowledge that there might actually be a real problem here. How come so many female tech people seem to share these same experi…

> How come so many female tech people seem to share these same experiences if it isn't structural?

Selection bias. Women who have ordinary experiences don't write angry blog posts about them, or don't get upvotes.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#222

Post by geebee »

gatsby wrote: post #20

Are these really commonly held beliefs? --You only take a job in business operations if you aren’t smart enough to be an engineer (or designer, or product manager, or…) --If your role isn’t technical, you don’t actually understand the product. I don't think many people actually say or believe this. Maybe these were common thoughts in 1999, but as an SF-based ops guy, I've never heard this. In fact, I would argue that…

I've actually found that the "commonly held belief" is often the opposite:

- You're only (still) an engineer because you lack the ability to move into a product management role.

- If your role is technical, your job is to code up the vision of someone who understands the product.

This is changing, rapidly, in some segments of the tech world But keep in mind, the "developer-driven culture" may be far more prevalent among the kind of organizations represented on HN than the business world at large.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#223

Post by JoeAltmaier »

onetwofiveten wrote: post #214
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its all very good to admonish 'treat everyone well'. But when you meet a lot of people, a LOT of people, you need some filter. Cultural filters are unfair to a minority who break the mold. But the trouble is, they work very, very well most of the time. Call it by any bad name you like; but its here to stay, because it works. That a utilitarian argument I know; but in my experience the free market respects no other ki…

Most people don't meet so many people that they can't spare a few minutes politeness. Mostly prejudicial judgements are made out of laziness and incompetence, not because they are useful. Obviously I don't know your circumstances. I guess if you did meet a lot of people and were seeking certain types (e.g. direct sales looking for customers) it would make sense to improve your odds by profiling. However, even then, I…

Well said. I like to think I give folks a chance. My comment was exploring why profiling is so pervasive.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#224

Post by Cd00d »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #202
onetwofiveten wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really find it hard to understand why it would be frustrating for people to not take you seriously and constantly hit on you in a professional context? And what exactly are you defending here? If you're in a professional situation (which includes work related social events) then you shouldn't make unwelcome sexual advances. That's how you avoid sexual harassment lawsuits. If you don't have the social awareness…

Its all very good to admonish 'treat everyone well'. But when you meet a lot of people, a LOT of people, you need some filter. Cultural filters are unfair to a minority who break the mold. But the trouble is, they work very, very well most of the time. Call it by any bad name you like; but its here to stay, because it works. That a utilitarian argument I know; but in my experience the free market respects no other ki…

A story as a counter point: In my field of study there were several people with reputations for having had wacky ideas or following rabbit holes too far and publishing obtuse conclusions. When these people gave talks you could see most of the audience pre-judging their current presentation based on a filter put in place from previous or concurrent unpopular work.

What I always noticed was that my advisor, who is rather famous in our niche of science, never dismissed a person for their history or pet interpretations. He would listen to everyone equally and dismiss ideas or concepts as they were presented. Because of this he was able to glean amazing insight from people that were outright dismissed by almost everyone else in the field.

Everyone can be put in one conceptual box, but all of us also pour over into others. You are not so busy that you can't evaluate people based on their current and real merit, instead of racial profiling or dismissing people that made a mistake in the past.

tldr; your false filters are holding you back.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#225

Post by merrua »

mathattack wrote: post #206
ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Given that this is a hot topic... Wouldn't a tech company have an enormous competitive advantage if they treated women better?

The ones that do, usually do. Mixed boards have better performance. Company's producing products that don't actively drive away some of the market make more sales. Unfortunately people don't always act based on economic best choice, but based on learned behavior.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#226

Post by kjs3 »

rodly wrote: post #79
ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

Privileged white male erects straw man. 50 years ago tells blacks "society is racist, so you should just get used to it and STFU".

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#227

Post by citadelgrad »

ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

I've seen this "non-technical" assumption many times and I always cringe.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#228

Post by mathattack »

lmm wrote: post #219
mathattack wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that this is a hot topic... Wouldn't a tech company have an enormous competitive advantage if they treated women better?

If it is, great, it'll sort itself out. I was kind of hoping Etsy would resolve this one way or another (they seemed to be heavily feminist as a core corporate value), but I haven't heard much from them lately - which suggests maybe they aren't doing so well?

It may not sort itself out. There could be non-performance reasons why companies behave poorly. Managers could have incentives for bad behavior (they like going to strip clubs with customers, for example) that present principal-agent problems.

I once observed a Japanese subsidiary of an American firm. They gave women the same career opportunities as men. As a result, they could get highly competent women from top schools (who wouldn't want to be office ladies at traditional Japanese firms) even though they couldn't get as competent men. As a result, the women at the subsidiary substantially outperformed the men at every level.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#229

Post by fwiwreally »

ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

FWIW,

You are pretty much an affiliate marketer. Being a CEO of a hosting company is not synonymous with being technical. From what I know of you... You paid sysadmins and engineers to build a company and your new company again was the fruit of others work.

Please don't proclaim to the world that you are technical when in reality you do not have technical chops. If you would like to back up your claim to being technical please point out any code you have written... Any major contribution to the technical field or open source.

I would talk to anyone for 13 minutes to avoid talking to a affiliate marketer. This is nothing to do with gender and everything to do with not like marketing assholes.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#230

Post by ap22213 »

lmm wrote: post #217
rada wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, wear something that only a coder would wear. You mean a dress? I am a coder and that's what I wear. Yeah, you should definitely wear that next time.

Did you read the part you quoted? Wear something that only a coder would wear. I've met non-coders who wore dresses. Clothing is signalling; that's almost its entire purpose at this stage. If 95% of people who wear outfit A are marketers, and you wear outfit A, you're going to (initially) be treated like a marketer. Surprise!

Exactly. A lot of us wear multiple hats, but many of us are only effectively at wearing one at a time.

I sometimes have to act the role of 'business guy', and in those cases, to be most effective, I wear 'business clothes'. However, sometimes I have to act the role of coder. And, in those cases, I wear 'coder clothes'. I don't know what coder clothes are for women, but for guys it's something quite relaxed and laid back. Most coders that I know try to make a statement that 'they're not the business guy'.

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