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Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#221

Post by junto »

tg3 wrote: post #23
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #8

How much evidence do we in fact have that the rebels gassed their own people in a false-flag operation? I had heard it was a possibility, Putin seems to think it's all but certain, but I haven't studied the issue in depth.

I think the problem is that there isn't much evidence either way. The Obama administration thinks it was Assad, as that fits their model of the conflict, where Putin thinks it was the rebels, as it fits his model. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't go to war when the only reasoning behind it is evidence that you're fitting to your model.

I think it is worth looking at this in another way.

Why would Assad use chemical weapons when he knows that the US is looking for a reason to invade?

He isn't an idiot.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#222

Post by iSnow »

darkarmani wrote: post #163
gruseom wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad argument. There are many illegal things a person can make legal by consenting to them. Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? (It's also inapplicable, since even if Russia consented, China wouldn't.)

> Is it hypocritical to both refuse consent and cite the law? No, but it is circular reasoning to base your argument for refusing consent by saying it is illegal. It's much less compelling if he comes right out and says: "Don't do it, because I don't want you too." So he tries to make the logic convoluted.

You are wrong, he states "you are not allowed do this if we don't consent, and we don't consent" which is according to international law.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#223

Post by gdy »

spacebe4time wrote: post #125
sologoub wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russian superiority views are a relic of the empirical past. Every empire-forming nation has that same trait - us versus barbarians. UK has this trait also and it is well illustrated in "Great Britain". Russia might have been a great place to live, if it weren't for rampant corruption. It's sad, but on a personal level, I just can't take the risk of raising a family there or trying to do business. In US, entrepreneur…

It isn't relic. Just like coffeemug I was born and raised in the Soviet Union. It's not openly taught in schools but most ethnic Russians consider themselves higher race and everyone else is intellectually inferior. This is even taught by Russian Orthodox Church. I graduated from high school after Soviet Union collapsed. We had this course called Christian Morality. In the class room I learned curious thing. It turne…

"most ethnic Russians consider themselves higher race and everyone else is intellectually inferior" Do you have any proof for that except for what your father thinks? Like sociologic studies or something?

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#224

Post by carlob »

varjag wrote: post #209
carlob wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose someone is raping you: - Stop this! You're hurting me. Stop it! You'll go to jail. - I wouldn't go to jail if you just consented to sex.

Suppose you're black and sit in the white section of a bus in 1950s. - Hey *, colored section is that way! You'll go to jail. - I could sit here if you white people weren't the one making the law. (That's the thing I love about analogies, they can be turned both ways and prove nothing)

No you didn't get my analogy.

The parent comment was stating the point that Putin was making it illegal himself by vetoing and retracting the veto would have made it legal. The same thing happens in sex, if you consent to it, it's ok; if you don't, it's rape. That's the mechanism of consent and of veto.

In your analogy there is no way the white bus passenger could instantly change the law by consenting to the black man sitting in the wrong section. It is illegal regardless of his opinion.

In sex as in international diplomacy you need unanimity (at least of the security council).

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#225

Post by contingencies »

Sagat wrote: post #193
contingencies wrote: post #176

That's an extremely well written piece. Clearly Putin has good speechwriters, and the Russian literary tradition is famous! Do you think a US speechwriter could produce such a thing in a foreign language ? I doubt it.

Putin is badass enough not to need speechwriters.

Oh yeah? So you're saying Putin is like Kim Jong Il: he doesn't give speeches very often, but when he does, it's always to a standing ovation.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#226

Post by drill_sarge »

I am not really a fan of Putin but I agree to the point that the USA are more and more seen as warmongers in the public. Our politicians may never admit/say this, but a lot of people only see the aggression which the US govt is bringing towards their so called enemies. Even a lot of people like the USA and their way of life but almost everyone doesn't like their government.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#227

Post by gdy »

anigbrowl wrote: post #140
nikcub wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is everything the major allies have released to back up their case: http://www.theguardian.com/world/graphic/2013/sep/03/syria-c... It isn't very good, it seems to be a case of finding scraps that fit your narrative rather than building a case. One thing that leads me to believe that it might have been the rebels: the civilians and soldiers killed in that rebel controlled area around Damascus were part of the mo…

True, but in that case the government forces should have been falling over themselves to facilitate the work of the UN inspectors.

Unless they are not so sure that the inspectors are impartial. This time they had no choice though.

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#228

Post by gdy »

foxhedgehog wrote: post #51
raquo wrote: post #40

I agree with what he says here but I wonder what his true motivation is. You can see that he wants a strong and stable power in Syria. Easier to deal with and less risk than all these rebels, who in all likelihood will turn out to be either pro-US or fundamentalists, neither of which is good for Russia.

He also happens to have a naval base there.

Which is tiny and nearly unused

Re: Putin: A Plea for Caution From Russia

#230

Post by DominikR »

jtc331 wrote: post #122
deveac wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He certainly does know his audience, and he certainly failed to mention a certain key foreign power supplying weapons to one of the sides... >This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world. Yes this is essentially a civil war between the current regime and a multifaceted opposition. Putin is heavily arming one of those sides.

And the United States (covertly) is heavily arming the other.

Not covertly anymore:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-be...

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