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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#221
post #44
post #37

I can understand that the AI labs might care about other labs distilling their models as it can eat into their competitive advantage, but do consumers care at all? Aren't consumers benefiting from this practice by getting better cheaper models as a result?

They're probably going for the national security/domestic manufacturing angle. > Aren't consumers benefiting from this practice by getting better cheaper models as a result? Aren't consumers benefiting from cheap chinese batteries, EVs, and drones?

> Aren't consumers benefiting from cheap chinese batteries, EVs, and drones?

Yes?

Not remembering my economic theory here, but it is likely more efficient/expensive to simply have the federal government cut checks to our moribund industrial sector companies and let consumers benefit from modern technology.

Cut GM/Ford/Stellantis a $20B check each, let consumers save (conservatively) $200B annually on new car purchases + downstream benefits. Huge win for consumers & taxpayers.

If it's not worth subsidizing explicitly like this, then we also should not subsidize by banning Chinese imports, which also ensures US drivers have less access to modern vehicles. (And downstream ensures US auto designers are less likely to have had contact with modern vehicles, making it less likely that they will be able to design future generations well.)

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#222
post #201
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…

>"A lack of prosecution does not make something legal" Plainly who gives a flying fuck. The US can claim whatever rules they want and so can China or any other country. On international level all those rules are artificial constructs unless they can be enforced. China can just say for example that they do not recognize copyrights /patents / whatever so it is "legal" for them.

This is illegal in China too, there's just an enforcement asymmetry. I understand what you're saying is de facto true, I'm just taking issue with people saying either

1) its not illegal (it is)

2) it shouldn't be illegal because Anthropic stole training data (thats not how the law works)

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#223
post #55

So what is the issue here? Distilling is still fair, on the same level like Anthropic scraped copyright protected material for their training. So here robbers are blaming robbers? These claims are just pointless, everytime

Distilling is still fair I generally agree, in the same sense that it's "fair" for the US and China to spy on each other. It's not a moral outrage, but it is something that the targets can and should try to prevent.

Outrageous only to the died-in-wool corpocrats.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#224
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because the closed-source frontier labs spend lots of money on human data (RLHF / RLAIF with human oversight). Moonshot is accused of circumventing these costs. Frontier labs add research costs into their inference pricing. If the market doesn't permit them to sustain sufficient pricing to have a positive cash flow, then their business prospects become weaker and they risk insolvency. Furthermore, other le…

Isn’t that the same argument they are making for replacing human labour? Circumventing costs.

There are many frames that one can place upon this issue. They do not contradict the other. There are moral framings (stole the internet so go eff yourselves, is one), but so is national security, and so is the doomer recursive self improvement risk, and then there is the framing purely on what this implies for future AI training.

I mainly focus on the last.

It will be hard for a frontier lab to justify spending the compute and data curation needed to advance AI further if that expenditure can be assimilated into your competitor's products within months/weeks. So reality will present labs with three choices:

A. Cease spending massive amounts of money and compute improving those models.

B. make those improved models more difficult to distill from, either through some regulatory regime, or some technical solution, which seems unlikely to me.

C. making the best models available only to select partners and government.

In all these potential outcomes, China, which lacks compute that U.S. labs enjoy, will likely stop seeing massive improvements in their AI models. Improvements to be sure, but right now they are enjoying gains from distillation AND their own model innovations, and these potential outcomes would largely stop one of those sources.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Stealing IP is how American industry got started. Goose: gander, pot: kettle. It is what built and sustains the movie and music industries. See: work for hire and 100+year copyright length The tech industry: see: copyright and patent assignment from discoverer to corporation. I know that corporations forcing me to assign patents and copyright to them was an incentive to take published works from "software practice an…

The things you listed are very far downstream of the start of American industry, which is in primary resource extraction and processing. Which is you know, what actually built the country. The media industry has always been materially irrelevant, and what we think of as the tech industry is extremely new.

You're right to call out the nasty environment surrounding intellectual property in the US and the exploitation of ideation in general, you just needed a correction on that. Someone else in this chain said virtually the same thing, which is a weird coincidence of historical ignorance. Not too weird, people tend to forget the 18th and 19th centuries happened, and much of the causally important wheels of the world are in the unsexy grease pits nobody wants to think about.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#226
if there are no consequences then who cares? You're not going to take Chinese companies to court and stealing IP is nothing new either. It's going to take some sort of policy change at the federal government level to do anything but they haven't done much up to this point. Maybe AI is important enough to actually get some kind of policy change, sucks for everyone else who have had their IP stolen with no consequences whatsoever.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters because the closed-source frontier labs spend lots of money on human data (RLHF / RLAIF with human oversight). Moonshot is accused of circumventing these costs. Frontier labs add research costs into their inference pricing. If the market doesn't permit them to sustain sufficient pricing to have a positive cash flow, then their business prospects become weaker and they risk insolvency. Furthermore, other le…

Oh, so mass theft is okay as long as American companies are doing it

Moreover, reading a copyrighted book and learning from it is not theft.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#228
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the models stole the entirety of written knowledge on the internet to train. They are being sued for the few cases where we have some proof of what they did because of some whistleblowers, all the rest will just go unpunished. They breached Github TOS, robot.txt's, copyright, patents every form of IP protection under the sun from a billion sources. It's just ridiculous for the thieves to cry about someone else…

Do you care about the law or not? I think theft is bad everywhere, not just when Anthropic does it.

I don't really have an oar in this water, but...

"Judge approves a $1.5B Anthropic settlement over pirated books used to train the Claude chatbot"

https://abcnews.com/Technology/wireStory/judge-approves-15b-...

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#229
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you care about the law or not? I think theft is bad everywhere, not just when Anthropic does it.

Not OP, but copyright law is an absolute joke. No, I don’t care one whit that someone’s TOS was violated. In fact, I find it hilarious. And it’s not “theft.”

"I think we shouldn't have IP protection at all" is a totally valid position to hold, but that's not the law is. OP said it didn't violate the law, and it does.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#230
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…

All of the models stole the entirety of written knowledge on the internet to train. They are being sued for the few cases where we have some proof of what they did because of some whistleblowers, all the rest will just go unpunished. They breached Github TOS, robot.txt's, copyright, patents every form of IP protection under the sun from a billion sources. It's just ridiculous for the thieves to cry about someone else…

They breached some TOS, but your first sentence is pure, over the top flim flam
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